Hi Scott,
I followed a link posted on S-Z over to the Bose forum and found this comment on stereo sampled sound:
http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=8206048934&f=4806048934&m=7456092785

I don't care much about this person's critique on stereo sampled sound, but his comment on what your audience actually hear. Would your audience hear the difference sitting in the listening area?

I took my PAS to the extreme yesterday by playing my music for the church choir. They had 4 condenser mounted high above the singer, plus two Sennheiser handheld for solos, all mics went in my mixer with my two keyboards and send the mixer's L/R outs to ch1 and ch2 of the PAS. We had a little trouble at first because of the sensitive condenser mics, and ended up had the PAS about 8 feet directly to the right of the choir. Things went great from there. It was pretty amazing that what the choir heard was what the congregation heard!

Uncle Dave was absolutely right when he talked about the comments he received from his audience. In my case, it was the same.

..rb

This whole mono vs. stereo discussion has deteriorated. Here is a link to another person from Bose who thinks stereo amplification is best for singles and duos, but really he is pushing the idea of an individual PAS system for each member of a band: http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=8206048934&f=4286020764&m=8896074194
Get the picture? What Bose is doing is trying to sell PAS units. If you are single or duo then two units is fine - if you're in a band then one for each member is fine. And they'll drum up whatever psycho-acoustic information you need to justify their sales. So forget stereo - at least a half a dozen PAS units for your church group is what Bose really thinks you should have.

So far, I haven't seen where any amount of facts about acoustics has made any difference to anyone who already had decided what they were going to do with their sound setup.

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 03-15-2004).]

It seems you are on fire again, Jim Although your reasoning MAY BE correct it seems to suffer from a logical fallacy, the one of "hasty generalization". Yes, we should keep our eyes and ears open to the possibility that their speech is a strategy to increase sales, but what they say makes sense to me (and beside that, don't they have a money back guarantee?): a single system is not well adapted to work with effect tuned sounds (like stereo piano sounds). Of course their choice of words to explain the issue is kind of hard (the other guys are guilty), but that's understandeable and does not allow me to draw any quick conclusions about their official speech strategy. I'm really badly anxious to have the opportunity to audition and A/B test it with my current PA, in Europe. That'll be the final judgement. BTW, I have asked myself (before this discussion was brought up) about the reason my Kurzweil synth has mono piano samples when the stereo samples sound so good on a stereo system...

-- José.

I'm hardly "on fire" about this issue - it's more like I'm bored to death with it. It was bad enough when few stereo sound system options existed, so whether to amplify keyboards in stereo really wasn't a question once. Now that stereo options exist some people want to switch the debate to why keyboards have stereo samples and/or outputs in the first place. Maybe we should debate whether we need two ears instead of one...

There shouldn't be too much debate about this. We don't "need" two ears, but the fact that we have two instead of one adds the ability to localize the sound source. There is also an improvement on clarity and fine distintions between sounds.

Given that Bose accepts that their mono system isn't able to reproduce some stereo samples with the same quality than stereo systems do, the test I would like to perform is to compare the quality of a (true) mono sample on their system with a stereo sample through a stereo system. No other comparison seems fair to me, but it will never be possible in some keyboards (namely on my Tyros Stereo Grand Pianos). That would help me to estimate if the investment is worthwhile or not.

-- José.

Jose,

Your comparison would be correct if the piano was the only sound emanating from your keyboard, but for most of us arranger keyboard players the whole point is to simulate playing as a band. We do need separation for realistic sound. Unless you envision all the band members piled up one on top of another, a single speaker will not cut it. I want to have separation between individual instrument sounds - I think we all do. Our outputs HAVE to be stereo, unless we have instruments with individual outputs for each solo and accompaniment track, and have a dozen PASes connected in (though I am sure Bose would like us to do that).

In addition, a piano is a "stereo" instrument by its nature, especially when you are playing it - the base is emanating from the left, and the treble tones/harmonics from the right. This is part and parcel of a realistic piano reproduction.

Regards,
Alex

Ok - sorry I stirred up the stereo debate. Here's a different topic for a change:

What is the power rating of the System?
The system delivers 750 Watts continuous power, broken down into 3x250 Watt. Each of the two sections of the Cylindrical Radiator™ loudspeaker handle 250 Watts and another 250 Watts are delivered into up to two B1 bass modules. This is both the power rating of the power amplifiers and the loudspeakers. Each rating has been established individually through industry standard measurements. These ratings do NOT reflect the actual power that is typically produced by the power amplifier and consumed by the loudspeaker. We also would like to point out that the power amplifiers, loudspeakers and internal limiters are exactly matched. This makes it virtually impossible to overdrive the loudspeaker and to clip or overload amplifiers while at the same time using all available resources very efficiently. (from Bose, of course)

..rb

The only thing that sounds bad in a Bose PA is a bad input source. If you can't get a good mono sound from your sample, than the sample is at fault, not the system.

Stereo is fluff, and while I LIKE fluff, it's not the end all. Most rooms do NOT benifit from stereo and this is easy to prove. I happen to own a pair so I can utilize stereo when it's going to be effective ....... most times, I just use the single tower.

Remember, my kb puts out 66 watts of stereo power as well, so the Bose is auxilary amplification. Right in MY corner of the stage ..... it's VERY stereo. That's where it ends ..... the crowd loves the new system. It's the best I've ever sounded. Mono OR stereo - is not the issue. I use what's best for each venue.

Maybe the room doesn't benefit from Stereo but Keyboards sure do! Stereo samples need stereo speakers to sound optimum, period. Even if you're pleased with your results that is only half of the equation. The other half is the audience that is listening to you. If you can still pack em' in with one PAS then more power to you UD. Of course if your playing in Bars you realize that most of the patrons are probably tanked and couldn't tell the difference anyway, having their audio perception off kilter because of their being plastered. Plus you could sing to them with a Radio Shack year end clearance 75% off Microphone (real cheapie) and they'd probably still think you sounded every bit as good as Michael McDonald. That's just Bars though. If your playing in other venues then that would be the true test in keeping them coming back with one PAS or not. Plus if you're not using auto-accompaniment I could see where your sound wouldn't be that big of a deal except your piano samples that are in stereo. If you've got mono sampled piano[s] on the KN7K and you're not using auto-accompaniment then you're in like Flynn and the sound emanating from the PAS should suffice. Plus like you said the KN7K has "Stereo" speakers too that put out quite a bit of volume that your audience no doubts hears also.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-15-2004).]

Alex,

I agree with you... in theory. A relevant fact is that part of "real audiences" in "real rooms" do not "feel" the stereo field effectively, as many have mentioned. I find intriguing that although the PAS is mono, many consider it sounds very good, dispersing the sound in a very effective manner. Until now, the big complaint has been the way stereo samples (concieved to be played through a stereo sound system) sound deceiving with the PAS. Given that the efforts in the development of effects has been done taking advantage of the possibilities that stereo sound system open, I want to give the PAS a fair possibility of comparison. I'll be the first to recognize that it's a step back or a mere good marketing campaign, if that's the result of my evaluation. Does anybody know when it will be possible to audition the PAS in Europe?

-- José.