Well folks I finally did it. Two weeks ago I went to the Guitar Center in Grand Rapids and I bought the Yamaha PSR2000. They have a no hassle 30 return policy so I thought I'd put it through its paces. If anyone cares here is my review.

Vocal processing - Excellent sounds and lots of simple to use descriptive presets. The harmonizer, compressor, eq and effects are all great. DanO and AJ, Ketron could learn a valuable lesson from Yamaha on this one.

Ease of use - Great! In less than an hour I was doing most of the normal basic things. It is very straight forward. Don, for me the buttons are in the wrong place. I use my right hand to select starts, stops, fills, varations and breaks. I did find some of the style groupings to be a little strange.

Balance, weight, and transportability - Great although the whole unit seems a little flimsy. The only way I found to turn off the internal speakers was to insert a plug into the headphone jack.

Styles - Fair, typical Yamaha except I thought the moonlight ballad with the OTS really sounded Glenn Millerish. The swing/bigband stuff was ok. I thought the ballads were a little weak. I really didn't find a great style for "After the Lovin" or "Wonderful World" or "Crazy" or a really good gospel. Sure there were some that worked but nothing great. I didn't find a good style for "Tuxedo Junction" or "NY NY". I'm sure there are some somewhere that will do the trick, if Yamaha doesn't send the style police after us.

Sounds - This is where I was appalled at the lack of sound quality. The "Sweet", "Live", and "Cool" voices were very disappointing. The muted trumpet sounds like a muted kazoo. The soprano sax sounds good for about a 4 note range then starts to sound like a muted oboe. I've heard better clarinets on 20 year old Lowrey organs. The woodwinds and brass were very disappointing. The guitars however I found to be very good. The organs and pianos were fair. The Leslie simulation wasn't very good. I didn't hear any difference between "Vintage" or "Sine" when using the organ flutes. Maybe that was my fault. You could really tell that Yamaha only used 16 megs of ROM on this thing.

If this were the best sounding keyboard out there I would of course use it. It isn't and I won't compromise my performance by using it. I would rate the sounds only slightly better than a Casio WK1800. When I had my PSR740 Uncle Dave told me that it wasn't up to the standards of the top of the line pro models. The 2000 is a 740 with the vocal processing from the 9000. It is a mid range model with mid range sounds at a mid range price. I gave up sound quality when I bought my PS6100 and stopped hauling an organ and external Leslie. I'm not going to do that now just to save 20 pounds and a few bucks. Dave, Don, Scott and the others, your vocals must be strong enough to carry the performance because the 2000 is too weak to carry itself alone in the sound department. It is slightly overpriced. I would double the price $350 of a Casio and add $200 for the onboard harmonizer. That would price it at around $900.

I'm taking it back tomorrow. I'm going to buy the PSR9000 and try it. It has 32 megs of ROM and hopefully better sounding voices. I know that the styles will not be any better and in fact may be a little worse but it is worth a try

Don't have a hairy folks. This is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. Opinions are like ...................... everyone has one.

Regards,

Tom

Hi Tom

I am surprised at the negative evaluation of the "sweet" "cool" and "live" sounds, as this have been positively received by others when on the PSR-9000. Was you evaluation based on their sound from the internal speakers--or did you also try them through headphones and/or external speakers.

Clif

I don't think you will like the sounds on the 9000 any better, with posssible exception of the organs.
Your description of the sounds doesn't sound right. Maybe there was something wrong with your particular model?? Or maybe we have different tastes.
That's why there is more than just one keyboard!
DonM

Tom,

I agree on many of your opinons of the PSR2000 except that the 2k vocalizer is no where near the 9k one.

( "The 2000 is a 740 with the vocal processing from the 9000." )

Have you played the SD-1 yet? I enjoyed many of the sounds on that unit. Many sounded very realistic to my ear.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2002).]

I'm gonna help deflect some of the heat for you Tom and take some of it for myself ( LOL ) with this but I agree with your assessment of the board.. almost completely in fact. There is nothing wrong with my 2000 either. It sounds pretty similar to the 740 I replaced it with. The only thing we might differ on is the guitar sounds. The acoustics are pretty good, but I don't care for the electrics whatsoever. I had better ones on my M1 which was made what..15 years ago already ? I bought this keyboard for live play though, and I think it could probably be useful for me in that capacity.., but now that I have finally figured out the OS of my PA80, I would rather use it instead. I find many of the 2000s internal sounds, however, to be virtually useless for any serious recording. I wish I still had the option of returning mine. Still, I'm contemplating putting it up for sale and using the funds toward a good module ( probably a Roland ). The only other point I will comment on were the Casio sounds. I don't know from the W1800, but I had the MZ2000 and I like many of its sound better than the PSR2000s. ( Ok I'm ducking now.... sorry but that's what I hear anyway) The MZ had other issues though, so it's now gone. Still, if I were not looking for a module at this point, I'd seriously consider a straight up trade with someone to go back to the MZ from my PSR2000

I also agree with Don M on this one Tom. I doubt that you will find the sounds in the 9000 to be a whole lot better. It seems to me that you, like me, might not be a big fan of Yamaha sounds in general Tom ( at least the ones from their arrangers ).

Korg AJ

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Cavanaugh:
[

Vocal processing - Excellent sounds and lots of simple to use descriptive presets. The harmonizer, compressor, eq and effects are all great. DanO and AJ, Ketron could learn a valuable lesson from Yamaha on this one.
***************
****************

Tom .......
I do not manufacturer the keyboards.
AJ + dano do not need a lesson !
The vocal kit adds value to Ketron products. IMO
I am getting excellent results . dano



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 02-08-2002).]

With all due respect Tom, I have found the cool voices to be VERY acceptable. I have had to tweak EQ a little here and there...but the 9000 and 2000 have made a distinct difference in the comments I have received from those in the audience who have commented to me.

Tonight I used the 740, and while the crowd seemed motivated, I had no such comments as mentioned above...and noticed myself the guitars and sax (especially) seemed lacking when compared to the 2K and 9K.

If I had to make a negative comment about the 2K, it would be about the Session Styles.
It seems some chords on swing tunes just go out of kilter... not even good jazz, in my mind.

Eddie

I agree as well. I actually bought a PSR1000 and brought it back after 2 days, "besides the harmonizer and a few sounds it's identical to the PSR2000". I had a chance to play the Casio MZ and I also liked the sounds better then the PSR, but it's lack of support for available styles etc.. steered me away, plus it's a Casio. My first band the keyboard player used a Casio until he made enough to buy a more serious KB, and you always had 1 or 2 people come up to you on a gig and say I have one just like it, I thought they were toys for kids to play with(MZ is by no means a childs toy)come to think of it I do remember getting that with the Yamaha's as well. It is a good thing that some companies are not that money hungry to go into the home keyboard toy market so you never have a to run into the situation mentioned. I lost some respect for Roland (Big Fan) when they joined the Casio and Yamaha market segment (creative series I think it's called). I wonder how many companies have actually stayed higher end only. It's funny I was just thinking the so called toy keyboards from Yamaha, Casio, Roland actually sound better than the pro boards did not to long ago. Technology has reached a peak and there will be a day that you just can't improve the sound quality any more than it already is, besides personal preference tweaks.

Does Korg make any so called toy keyboards for the home???????????

I haven't seen any Korg home keyboards and I'm not really sure whether they exist. If they do or did, it wouldn't change a thing for me. I am not an "image" kinda guy, so I don't care what Korg or Roland puts out in the home market, so long as the boards I want to play from them meet my standards. As far as gigging, yeah I've heard comments from people who said .."hmmm, Yamaha.. I thought they made motorcycles", or "I saw a Yamaha at Kmart, did you get yours there"? ( yeah a CP25 at kmart imagine that..lol, ) It really doesn't matter to me, but I guess if it did I could always cover up the logo on the back, like some other players do. ( There was a thread here on that topic about a year ago that had a huge life of it's own ). The keyboard is a tool for me to express what I want to create musically, so I don't care who makes it, or what else they make besides as long as the board I have at hand fits my needs. The PA80 and Triton series in general ) just happen to be keys that fit me very well, both for sounds and the way they respond to my touch. Not really a Korg expert though, but for the most part, for synths, I do prefer Korg.( The name "Korg AJ " really came about because Ketron AJ is also a member of the forum and it was confusing for some here when I signed off as "AJ" ). I don't care if Roland makes home keys or not, I like Roland sounds a lot, and have played with a few that would be the equal of the Triton series for me, so that's where I'm going next, unless I can get DanO or AJ to bring a Ketron up to NY for me to try ouy ( LOL ). As far as the MZ, yes it had some sounds I like better than the PSR, but it also had some that were not so good. The drums and pianos in particular were not to my liking ( neither are the PSR's though ), and I really had to tweak some sounds to get them to sound better. The Velo Alto Sax however, was awesome, better than any other sample I have ( I have quite a few of 'em ). So was the distorted guitar. I wish I had sampled a few of the better sounds though before I got rid of the board. It's fatal flaw for me though was that it saved recorded accomp "midi" data in a "Casio" format rather than a standard midi file. Utterly useless for importing in to a real sequencer. Anyway sorry all for straying from Tom's topic here...
I don't think ALL of the Yamaha sounds are of mediocre quality. In fact there are some that I find to be very good. It just so happens that many of my staple sounds are also my least favorite in the 2000 ( electric guitars, drums, brass )

Korg AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-09-2002).]

You stole my thunder, AJ. The reason I LOVE my PSR2K is that MY staple sounds are clearly represented on this keyboard. The sounds I regularly use just so happen to be the ones I love on this keyboard. Now, don't forget, I am a songwriter of mostly ballad-type songs, so to your point, this whole thing is very objective. But then again, I love Yammi sounds in general.

Angelo

AJ - Ketron is IN New York - go see an SD1 at the distribution center !!!!!

I took the 2000 back and bought the 9000. I haven't had time to try it yet. I have a gig tonight at the Moose and will use my X1.

I used internal speakers, I used headphones, I used external speakers. Now onward to the 9000.

Dano and Aj-Ketron
I know you didn't design or manufacture the vocal harmonizer. It is indeed a plus and I use it all the time. AJ's latest vocal settings are a significant improvement over the stock ones and I thank AJ for offering them to me. I just thought that with your power and influence with the Ketron company you could spur them on to bigger and better things.

Hi Tom

I am very anxious to read your next posting as to the PSR9000, cause I for one find it very hard to imagine that someone who is not all that satisfied with the PSR2000 could be over the moon about the 9000. (so mark your words my friend !!!!)
Seriously though I am really curious because I owned both 9000 and 2000 for a short period of time. As you know neither could please me a lot and in the end, much like Bluesplayer I settled down with the Korg PA-80 and have not regretted it ever since.
(in all fairness I should add I also play the old and trusted Solton MS50 and Roland E70).

By the way Tom, good to see we beat you on the Olympics on the very first day at the
5000metres fast skating !!!!!!!!!!!!

greetings,

john.

I thought the PSR9000 just had some additional voices the PSR2000 didn't have, but many of the voices are identical. Of course, the PSR9000 has much better speakers. You might grow to love these voices. I really love Yamaha voices. You'll definitely love the hard drive and being able to get all of the PSR2000 and CVP209 styles in one easy to access place. But if you were really disenchanted with the PSR2000's voices, you might need to move on to another brand.
When I tried the Solton X1 after really loving the PSR740, I was at first really disenchanted with the Solton's voices. My friends here at the synth forum told me I should give the X1 a second chance, which when I did, I came to love the styles and voices. I got rid of the X1 for other reasons.
So Tom, you might get used to the Yammi voices and come to love them. You might really dig the superior piano and additional voices on the PSR9000. I hope so, because Guitar Center might get ticked when you make your second return.
I know you'll miss the OTS system that the PSR2000 has. Can you create OTSs for styles on the PSR9000's hard drive? or only with flash rom styles?

Larry

Larry and John,

Larry your are correct about the x1's sounds. I complained about the clarinet sound on the x1. I wasn't impressed with it. After hearing the Yammie sounds I now know better. The clarinet on th x1 sounds like a bad live clarinet player. Not a great player but real and live. The others are more like instant coffee. The night, alto, and tenor sax are very good on the X1. The Miles trumpet and muted trumpet are also very very good. None of the 9000 voice compare.

However, I only unboxed the 9000 yesterday. I got to play it for about 30 minutes. So far I like it much better than the 2000. There IS a difference in the voices. The scaling is much better. To me they sound a little more real. The solo brass and woodwinds are still not as good as the x1's but they are somewhat better than the 2000. The piano seems better. The organs seem a little better although the Lesile simulation still is not as good as it is on my X1. I just absolutely love the vocal harmonizer on this thing. I could almost keep it just because it does such a good job with the vocals. It is simple to use, it has many descriptive presets, and it sounds very very good.

I do like the 9000 much better already. There is a difference in the sound from the 2000. It is not because of the better internal speakers. I have them turned off. I'm running it through my PA as I did the 2000. Even after 30 minutes I feel as though I could live with the 9000. Will I like it better? I don't know.

I'm not sure what you mean by OTS on the 9000. When you select a style there are 4 presets that set the right hand up with voices that compliment the selected style. I thought this was OTS. Is OTS something different?

Guitar Center might get ticked if I return it but they do not stock the SD-1 (which I would like to try) like other stores in their chain. We are not talking about a 400 dollar Fender Strat guitar here. We are talking about a 2500 dollar investment. For that kind of money I'm going to make very sure. These keyboards have so much on them that you can't make an educated purchase just playing them in the store for an hour or so. Besides the store was a zoo. There was so much playing going on it sounded more like NAMM. There was no way you could get a good listen in the store.

So far I like it much better than the 2000.

Larry or Donny, where can I find the other Yamaha and converted styles for the 9000?

John, about the Dutch gold medal, as my boss says "Even a blind pig finds a few acorns".
John what does "ate schmock-a-lick" mean?

Regards,

Tom

Not all the CVP209 styles will work on the 9000pro or the PSR9000. Those styles called "session styles" are not backwards compatible. If you try to play these in the 9000 series you get an error reading on the screen. It's the session styles that are the much more exciting styles with much more "content" in the styles. I've checked with Yamaha when I noticed the downloaded styles worked in the PSR2000 but not the PSR9000 a few months ago.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene

Tom......

You Got Mail!

donny nj

Tom
You got more mail
Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny

Hi George and Tom,

the session styles from the Yahoo group that Ulrich Montag posted should work, since he converted them for the 9000.

I have them and they work fine.

Tom, I think that the sounds in the 9000 will satisfy you more, but some of the styles are less excitng than in the new 2000.

Combine those styles with the 9000 sounds and you've got a nice machine.
Make sure that you got the latest OS, so you can call up styles easily from registration memory. Great feature, I use it a lot.

If you need any styles let me know.

Eric

Voice preferences are of course a matter of taste, but frankly I was blown away by the Sweet Soprano Sax on the PSR-2000......almost too good to be true. Very expressive, really inspiring! On the other hand, the Sweet Trumpet seemed "too sweet", but I could see it having use.

Tom:
I was a bit surprised to hear your disappointment with the PSR2000's voices. As much of a Technics devotee I've been for so long, I think that many of the 2000's voices sound far superior. My beef with Yamaha is more with it's styles and poor (unusable) full keyboard mode chord recognition. Keep us posted on your keyboard exploration progress. I hope you find one that finds YOUR needs best. - Scott

IMO, its a matter of taste. Having played on the xp60 for a while before playing the 740, i did feel the 740 sounds were toyish in the beginning. However, as i played it more and more I started to like the difference they offered. They didn't seem toyish any more. In fact there are some sounds I love on the 740 as compared to the xp60. I think its a matter of perception.

Yes I agree it can be perception. Some people like milk chocolate some like dark chocolate. Some like Swiss and heaven forbid some like Dutch. (I threw that in there for John's benefit). I've even convinced myself that I prefer diet soda to regular. I love my wife's pumpkin pie. I think it is the best. Have you ever had a piece of pumpkin pie that looks great but tastes like cardboard? That is not perception. I've played in a 16 piece big band for 30 years. I know what saxes, clarinets, and trumpets are supposed to sound like. I played clarinet and sax in high school. You can probably convince yourself that the woodwinds and brass on the 2000 sound good but they are cardboard.

Tom,
Since reading your impressions of the sounds, I went back and listened to several minidisk recordings of myself on both the 9000 and the 2000. I honestly can't tell the difference without listening for style differences.
But then, about the only woodwinds I use are a couple of saxs-Growl and Sweet. I played trumpet for years, and think the Sweet Trumpet is o.k.--not wonderful but as good as most keyboard trumpets. I love the Growl Sax! Surprisingly, I think the Growl Sax on the PSR8000 sounds better than the 2K or the 9k. Probably effects.
While doing this, I also played some recordings of the X1. As is generally conceded, the overall sound is far superior. The live drum sounds are fantastic. You can hear every little detail throughout the kit. The bass player is very tasteful and much more "aggressive" than the Yamaha bass man. It sounds like a live combo and you wouldn't suspect you are listening to a keyboard.
I don't regret selling it to you because it was so very difficult for me to operate in real time, with the buttons on the right side (which is where you prefer them).
The PSR2000 is perfectly adequate and very well suited for what I'm doing right now. I will take a close look at the new GEM, the Technics KN7000 (it will have to greatly improve the vocal input and harmony and accept a standard HD) and the SD1 before getting "this year's" keyboard.
Despite Yamaha's generous gift to Ryan, I remain almost totally disenchanted with them for the way they are handling the PSR2000 situation. It has been two months since I first notified them of my problems, and I fully expect it to be another couple of months before they address any of the updates in the U.S. Then, I expect them to totally disregard the bugs in the harmonizer.
I hope they prove me wrong.
DonM

Don,
I recieved a call from a "Honcho" at Yamaha who picked my brain dry about sytles, sounds, features and bugs. We spent over 90 minutes on HIS dime, and he assured me that the bugs are being dealt with. It takes time to delelop new software (and hardware), but I beilive that they are really doing it. There is such a small percentage of users in the psr world that demand the kind of service that WE do from the instruments, and I understand why Yamaha drags their feet a little before making changes, or "fixes" that will only affect a very small part of the market. I don't think they are shying AWAY from responsibility .... just playing the odds. Sit tight - there is still NOTHING for a thousand bucks that does what the 2000 does. I want something better, too - but for now, this is the best offer with the fewest compromises out there ........ and you KNOW I'm right !

Don, U.D. and the others,

I worked as an organ tech for 10 years. One of the dealers for whom I did service was a Yamaha dealer. (That enabled me to buy my PS6100 at cost).I can't speak for them now but back then Yamaha was VERY VERY fussy about giving their customers good service. Many times they would ship whole boards when normally we would replace discrete componants. Unless Yamaha has drastically changed I do believe they will make happy customers out of you 2000 owners. I also do think that the 2000 is a very good value even though I think it may be slightly overpriced. It just didn't do it for me. Be cool Don, no sense elevating your blood pressure.

Don,
Lets say I'm playing a song in the key of C and I 'm comming to the end. My left hand is holding a G7 chord and I want the ending to start when I switch to the last chord the C. I use my right hand to select the desired ending because my left hand is occupied. That's why I like the switches on the right. How do you do it?

Well in that situation, since I would have to quit playing with my right hand to hit the buttons, it would be easy enough to reach over to the left side and hit the ending. At least it is the last button on the right (of the buttons on the left side).
The problem I had is that I play a lot of fills and all the leads with my right hand. It was a far bigger problem to stop playing with the right hand than the left for me.
I even play along with the endings.
Don