I've been going to different sites today and listen to demos for the top keyboards, both arranger and synths--and something came to me while doing this.

Does anyone else think we just might be starting to go in the wrong direction a bit with sound reproduction?

Hear me out for a minute on this. Isn't it possible that we may just be making samples a bit "too perfect", and as a result starting to lose some of that naturalism you find in the "real" instrument?

Take the new SA voices on the Tyros, and the Mega voices found on the T-series and now PSR's line. (They're great voices and a big step forward), but I went back and had a "real close" listen to the guitar sounds (acoustic guitars"). Being a guitarists myself I came to the realization that with all the new effects or "nuances" they're adding to these voices some of the "realism" I think is being compromised. A good example is the thread we just had about "fret noise".

I think makers are starting to focus just a bit "too much" on the nuances, and at times those nuances can be overwhelming in the sound in turn making it sound more synthetic and less natural--am I making sense?

Take this for example. As a guitarists I have choices of of different styles of picks. They vary by thickness. My strum and solo work will sound different based on the thickness of my pick. However these new sounds have a very predominent pick and strum effect. I find those two effects now implemented in these voices is often overbearing, and at times seem to take away from the naturalism of that sound.

Listening to the demos and even styles that use these voices, the level of these effects are often "constant", and don't seem to vary as you'd find on the actual instrument. For example my strum on the down stroke and up stroke can vary from chord to chord. My application of force with the pick to the strings can vary as well.

Again I just wonder if we may be seeking a sound that is "too perfect", and while in the persuit of that are we compromising the naturalism within the true instrument.

I once read a review of a digital piano, and the reviewer made an interesting statement. He said that although the piano sounds were top notch, they were "too perfect", and in this makers quest to deliver this sound by trying to perfect it they compromised that naturalism you find in the real instrument.

What do others think? I feel this applies not to just arrangers, but even synths too.

Squeak

Also here's another thought. As keyboardist there are many who play the keys only, and nothing else. Is it possible that with the way we're going that in time in the persuit of the "perfect sample" we will end up distorting the future generation keyboardists perception of what the instruments is supposed to or should sound like?

Take this for example. 20 years from now say I know a kid who owns a keyboard that now has "I don't know" the new and improved "Intergalactic Cosmic Voices", and for the sake of conversation lets say I play my acoustic guitar for the boy, and he says "that sounds like shit!" That guitar sounds nothing like my keyboard.

Just a thought


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-09-2006).]

Squeak,

I think you answered your own question here. As long as there are these variables, there's no way they will ever be able to reproduce the sound variations from performer to performer, not to mention guitar to guitar (or sax to sax).

What we hear is a middle of the road reproduction.

Secondly even on keyboards the same applies, player, playing style, dynamics, initial touch, after touch etc., etc.

So my short answer is I think not.

Terry



------------------
jam on,
Terry
http://www.artisans-world.com/

Actually I disagree. Just a little more creative program editing by the makers would help really. Rather than have the velocity set (equal) for the nuances, the can alternate to get a more natural feel--if that makes sense.

Squeak

I think that you answered your own TOPIC QUESTION...NO...we are not headed in the wrong direction. We just need to travel further in the direction we (manufacturers) are going. Trying to develope the most realistic playable simulation of each individual instrument. They are making headway I think.


Dennis

Squeak my have touched on something that has validity. Japanese saxes and guitars reached a point of perfection in the eighties that resulted a lost of warmth.(Character) (Jazz Guitars) You need some imperfections to create a warm tone. I don’t want to get to technical because I usually get lost in what I’m saying, but the overtones that are needed in an instrument to produce that nice warm sound can destroyed with perfection.

John C.

Bruno! Exactly my point. There has to be some degree of imperfection in the sound...,other wise it loses the realism (or at least I think it does).

Squeak

I think I understand Squeak. When I first got Prosounds fretted module, I noticed that the Les Paul guitar sounds sounded like they might be ever so slightly out of tune, or maybe it was something else, but they sounded "imperfect". Yet when I play them together, it sounds just right, and it actually sounds a lot like my real Les Paul does, as opposed to some of the similar sounds from my Les Paul soundfonts. Perhaps the person who made it up uses at least somewhat of a similar setup to me with my Les.

The nuance thing and variation from player to player that Terry mentions rings true for me. I have an old Ibanez electric.. um I think it's a GX20 ? Anyway it's a low end model, probably in the 200 USd range, but it has a decent and distinct sound that works well for some rock tunes.

I recorded several notes and chords, turned them into wav files, and in turn made the wavs into a soundfont. It sounds exactly like "me" ( my pick, my strumming style, my amp, etc ) playing the guitar, only I play keys better than I play guitar, so I can do more musically with the soundfont than I can do on the actual guitar. I have better sounding commercial soundfonts to be sure, yet they don't sound as natural as my GX20 font when I play them.

AJ

So let me get this straight. The way to achieve perfection is to introduce imperfection so it won't sound so perfect. Well just give me the perfect sounds; I can introduce the "imperfection" when I sit down to play .

Peace,

chas

The imperfections bring you closer to live. Why do bands tune? Because acoustic instruments are pray to forces of nature.

Beyond the physical mechanics of the instrument, the techniques of the human come into play. Some purposeful, some not.

The manufactures are on the right track. However, they have limitation of resources (computing power, programming techniques, and finite R&D budgets). They have made great strides in the past few years. Rhodes and Pianos sound great. Some instruments have more nuances that are more difficult to capture (string instruments). With each new version, they get a little closer.

It appears that the approach is to first accurately reproduce the sound without sounding too synthy and then add back the nuances and imperfections that makes it real.

Hang in there. It will keep getting better.

The challenge for us as musicians is how to best use the canvas of sounds available to us. Don't be frustrated in limitations that you perceive. Instead, rejoice in what you have.