what is generally regarded as a musician's 'time' is not
about where they come in, go out, divide bars, or any other technical failures..those are amateur shortcomings.

what is meant is how steady or unsteady the tempo is..do they drag, speed up, or some of each...this is distinctly
different from their "rhythmic feel" or lack of it..and

among even great musicians there is variation between those who like to play right on the beat, just ahead, or just behind.a great rhythm section needs more than good musicianship, it needs unanimity of beat-feel, too.

Good explanation/understanding of "musician's time". "The Swing's the Thing"!


Russ

Wow, lots of good tips, observations, and advice on improving your sense of timing and getting more comfortable with less familiar time signatures. However, the point I was trying to make was distinguishing between timing errors and playing rhythmically. I alluded to some performances that have been offered here that were not played rhythmically. Things like 'leading' or rushing the beat, but in an exagerated way, giving a sense of not playing completely in time. Like trying to effect a forced syncopation that you don't really hear or feel. Makes the playing sound very amatuerish like someone playing a pop tune note for note from the sheet music (and rushing it).

I don't know if one can be trained out of this as I believe that these people hear it as being correct.

When Captain Russ talks about "in the pocket" being a beautiful thing, believe me, it is. You can play with a group every night for a month, be well-rehearsed and playing "tight" every night, and still maybe only experience that "special" groove once during the course of the month.....but man, is it worth it.

My wife, bless her, is a competent pianist and can play practically anything you put in front of her. However, listening to her play is like listening to a metronome and I'm certain that she has never played a single note in her entire life that was not written down. She played flute (her primary instrument) well enough to play with the Philadelphia summer orchestra (that's pretty much the orchestra without the first chairs) while she was in grad school (also at Temple, Robert G., luckily, not a music major).

Some examples of playing "in the pocket"; the Count Basie band, especially during the Joe Williams years. A good part of that sound was Freddy Green thumping away on that rhythm guitar...you felt him more than heard him. I remember an interview with some famous alumnus of the band who said, "if you want to play for Basie, you better have that rhythm". I think I know what he meant.

Other examples would be some of those great "fatback" organ trios of the 60's and 70's like Brother Jack McDuff, and Richard "Groove" Holmes. Also some of the great groups put together by Carlos Santana.

Anyway, as others have already observed, it's not so much about time as it is feel. And it really is true....you either have it or you don't. Fortunately, most of us do; it just needs fine-tuning.

chas

Interesting topic, thks for bringing up.

All good suggestions.
To add Some exercise suggestions;

Timing:
Play along with basic midi tracks.
If possible record and LISTEN to your playing.

Groove:
Write your own drum tracks in a sequencer or
drum machine.
If your drum composition with playback automaticly causes you to tap your feet or causes other rhytmic movements, you've done well.

ha, best explanation I've heard so far.

Well, not in MY case!
Dancing actually scares me. I'm serious..... I have terrific rhythm ..................... everywhere BUT my feet ! ( Unless I'm at the drums ! )

Has anyone tried this yet, and if so, what did youfind?



------------------
Miami Mo

I always have trouble with the song, The Wanderer when I'm playing drums. The beat I play is a 4/4 shuffle, but the background vocals that go Wah, Wah Wah fall on the offbeat. So when I sing and play at the same time, I really have to concentrate or I screw one or the other up. Otherwiese I have perfect timing and Rythem. Go Figure?

I was taught to sit at the Piano and improvise whilst I sing and/or Scat over the soloing. This helps ryhthm, timing, and improv skills.

Nice to meet you too. Welcome to Synthzone. For whatever reason, the SZ membership is primarily made up of men, so it's great to have 2 more women now join our forum, and interestingly enough, BOTH of you joining SZ on the very SAME day: 08/31/06. I look forward to yours & Mai Linh 's female perspective on arranger kbs & music.


I'm a part time music teacher (keyboards & voice) and music consultant, with my student ages ranging from teen to adult.

Again, welcome aboard MrsMusic.

Scott