It is important to be made aware of such a "poor design".

I know several people who were considering this instrument because of its many great features, but when they are made aware of this strange "feature", it may, or may not, make a difference in their decision to purchase.

Nevertheless, it is definitely something of which they should be made aware.

Hopefully Roland will address this issue with their usual expeditiousness.

Thank you, Diki (and Alex) for bringing this to everyone's attention.

Ian

Nicely done Ian.

I am one of those who is seriously considering this board as my next arranger purchase. If I'm reading this right, and using OTS causes me to lose the chord fingering settings, than this will be a big deal to me, enough that I would likely decide against the G70 entirely.... but only if the intelligent arranger mode is not my preferred mode in the first place. I understand the single finger part, but that doesn't bother me, so long as it also recognizes three and four fingered chords in intelligent mode along with playing two notes of a chord root and minor third for minor chord, root and 7th note for 7th chord, etc. This is similar to one of the fingering modes in my PA80 and is exactly how I have it set up. What I don't like is strict single finger mode where you play the root and the next key up or down for a minor, next two keys up and down for a 7th..etc. That I won't use.

That's the kind of information that really DOES help here at the forum, as opposed to some of the other stuff ..... Now I can see for myself how this ( which is something I probably wouldn't have thought to look for ) will affect me before I make a final decision on what to purchase. Thanks for sharing it.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-05-2006).]

I have indeed read the manual before buying the G70.

I was satisfied with the list of the parameters that the OTSes memorize (and recall). I am not satisfied with the fact that during recall of the OTS, an extraneous action of recalling additional, non-recorded parameter is occurring.

If you had a situation that every time you pressed a middle C it had also played an E and a G, you would surely consider it a problem (though perhaps if you had only played Cmaj chords, it would be a "feature"). I am surprised why some people are trying to excuse similar misbehavior of the OTS. The whole purpose of the "memory" is to recall what was memorized. If it recalls something other than it had memorized, then it is a problem.

This operation is not according to doucmentation in the manual, but even if it were, IMO it would still need to be changed.

I understand that in a complex system like the G70 the initial software release may have a number of problems with improperly working or illogically designed functions. The proper way to go about this is to fix these problem. which is what i hope Roland will do.

AJ, as I said before, this may not be an issue to some people, and I am glad it is not for you (though I suggest you try exercising the OTSes, and playing the G70 in the "Intelligent" mode before purchasing one). I often play riffs with my left hand, and for that the single finger chord setting is horrible.

Regards,
Alex


[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]

I understand Alex, and now that I think of it, actually I don't always use that mode either, so maybe it is an issue for me as well. On a few of my OTS and performance settings I actually do use the piano fingering mode on the PA80 when I play the piano sounds, and everything including OTS settings work fine ( ie- fingering preferences change as saved ).

The real issue on the PA80 for me is that I dislike the piano sounds so much that I don't use them very much.

AJ

AJ,

The pianos on the G70 are fantastic, at least to my ears. The sounds that I play with the left hand are usually the pianos, especially when the right hand solos are different instruments. With velocity sensitivity you can make those piano sounds really cut through the mix.

Being able to play riffs with the left hand takes away from the canned feel of the pre-programmed styles - sooner or later this gets to be an issue with any instrument, and this is where I feel it becomes so important to be able to play "help" the style. The only way to do that, though, is with the Piano-style chording in the left hand, which allows you to press a 3-finger chord to set the arranger chord, and then play riffs/solos pressing 1 or 2 keys at a time.

BTW, for that same reason I needed to buy a 76 key instrument (with 61 keys there is simply not enough room for the left hand riffs).

I hope that Roland will acknowledge and fix the problem with the OTSes that in its present mode of operation makes so little sense and negates these important capabilities of their instrument (they did it in the E80 after all).

Regards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]

My style is a little different, but for the same reasons I use the piano fingering mode on the PA80. When using piano sounds, and occasionally guitars, I sometimes like to turn the bass parts of the styles off and play left handed bass and right handed comping and riffs. Having only 61 keys of course really limits this, so that's when using "full keyboard" mode for chords becomes essential to me.

It also has the added benefit of forcing the chords to follow what I play exactly, which sometimes turns out to be a very good thing. The good thing is that the PA80 OTS settings, as well as the performance slots, recall everything I set up. You're very right about this Alex, and it may become a big issue for me.

I also play live with One Man Band, using my Motif ES along with a slew of softsynths. I have also played live with the MZ2000 solo. Neither of these have the so called "intelligent" or mode in the same way the PA80 does, so with them I only use full fingered chording, and I am quite comfortable with that as well.

AJ

Alex,

I was hoping that I could get you to put a little finer point on this topic, for those considering buying a G-70.
I have read all the posts and the varied comments and opinions. I undertand exactly what you are talking about. However my question relates more to the G-1000 and your ability to use that keyboard. Does the G-1000 not have OTS? or is it that the G-1000 doesn't revert back to inteligent play when you select the OTS? Forgive me as I am not familiar with the OS of these particular keyboards. (but I do want to understand)
I realize that the G-70 is overiding your global setting of Piano Chord Mode for arranger playing. This is what I understand to be the major glich. It is implementing a mode of operation that is not supposed to be saved in the OTS. Which begs the question, why has Intelegent Play been arbitrarily programmed into OTS. ...I GET IT!...

What I don't get is the undeniable amount of angst that others feel about your comment relating to this problem.

Now if the G-1000 does the exact same thing as the G-70...Thats a whole different ballgame. But you did mention that you bought the G-70 for its OTS. Which led me to believe that the G-1000 did not have the OTS.

Maybe you could help me and others understand a little better the difference that you have in the two keyboards as it relates to the OTS or lack thereof.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

Look, Alex, I'm really not sure why you are upset with me (and others) who merely point out to you that the problem you have encountered - which we at the Danish G70 Users Club discovered and documented over a year ago - is more correctly identified as a design flaw, and not a 'bug'. That is all. We don't have a problem with you making the fact widely known (in fact, the more widely recognized this problem is, the more likely Roland are to provide an OS fix)......

A simple search at the G70 site for 'OTS' before you bought the G70 would have wised you up to the MANY problems OTS has on the G70 (compared to most people's expectations of what it SHOULD do)....... The fact that OTS settings are for Internal and Custom styles ONLY, the fact that OTS settings are saved to a UPS (performance Set, NOT to the style itself), etc., etc., are well documented, and by the fact of Roland having completely re-designed this feature for the E80 (and hopefully are working on a new OS for the G70 that includes this fix) is a tacit acknowledgment of the problem (you rarely see ANY of the big 3 publicly do a 'mea culpa'). This is definitely more than they ever did for the G1000........

What most of us that wanted to use OTS have done is give up on this 'feature' until Roland fix it, and start to use the UPS Set List more. It involves a bit more setup time, but is even more functional than OTS by allowing the memorization of WAY more parameters than OTS. Is this perfect? no....... Does it work? yes......

In the meantime, perhaps you'd care to revisit your first post, and decide whether this one feature (which you managed to do without, before) REALLY tips the scale against all your other positive impressions.

Diki,

I am glad that this has been brought to light here as I am close to deciding T2 vs G70. It is potentially a major issue for me as well. I'll have to try it "live" to see how much difference it makes.

On the PA80, it wouldn't matter all that much to me, simply because I use the performance registrations more than the OTS buttons, because the performances are very well laid out and easy to access, although both record all changes in parameters perfectly. The main reason is because I can name the registrations, but not the OTS settings, so I have to be memorize the settings. Not very practical

On my MZ2000, there are extra steps involved in accessing registration banks vs the PA80, so I tend to use the One Touch presets more, plus they are named and easy to read.

AJ

AJ - yes, using the performance memories works very well instead of the OTS for now. Like you say, being able to name them is one HUGE advantage to most regular OTS implementations. I just set up two or three UPGs next to each other in the Set List and switch on the fly. With 192 UPGs per UPS (and very quick load time for UPSs) it doesn't take too long to lay out all your favorite styles in the mode you prefer with a choice of different voices....... So instead of choosing the style from the Style select section, you just select it from the User Program Set.

The best thing I like about the G70 is there always seems to be several ways to do the same thing.......