An arrangement by ANY artist is subjective, several examples are:

Mr. Frank Sinatra recorded “The way you look tonight” in a Foxtrot/Swingy feel.
The same song was recorded recently by Michael Buble in a Bossanova style, also Steve Tyrell made another version also different, and that those not make it “wrong or BAD approach”, another examples are, Dean Martin, Harry Connick, Jr. and Michael Buble made a recording of Sway, 3 very creative distinct approaches to the same song, the song Moonglow by Rod Stuard , Carly Simon and Steve Tyrell, have different orchestrations, also artist like Peter Cincotti with the contemporary singers I mention earlier, are making MANY recordings that where made popular by Sammy Davis, Nat King Cole, etc……There are hundreds of examples, like New York New York by Liza Minelli and Frank Sinatra, etc.

Because someone recorded earlier a song DOES NOT HAVE to be the SAME carbon copy arrangement/orchestration for someone else.

My point is, you can arrange/play/sing a song with an entire different approach and that does not make it wrong, bad…..simply, is different.
And for those who proclaim to be “brutally honest”, you can be honest with INTEGRITY, without been crude/rude, need to have more class and demonstrate education and RESPECT, or, that does not mean nothing?

You can express your opinion and be objective with a language non abusive/aggressive. Even if English is not your native language, like it is in my case, so, it is not excuse to use demeaning language, I wonder if those who are quick to bash somebody else’s work, same members who NEVER post ANYTHING musical or make a significant POSITIVE contribution, I start doubting if some of them can really play/perform?, because OWNING an instrument like the arrangers or workstations, does not make them professional performers.
The conduct by some of this members makes a deterrant for members WHO CAN contribute POSITIVE knowledge, music, tips, etc.

This is most likely to be my last post at least for some time.
Please, be respectful.

...Its a slippery slope.

Who decides what is abusive?

If someone posts, "I don't care for Bill's vocal on this...it just doesn't work." Or says, "I think Bill/Dayton keyboard work isn't that good...Esh and Scott are both better players."

In my mind, neither comes close to abusive language.

If someone says, "That Corfield guy-he sucks...he can't sing, can't play, etc..."

Its closer, but still not abusive...

If someone says Bill's a total jerk...everytime he posts something, I'm going to slam it with everything I have...

Now...we might be getting pretty close to abusive.

My two cents...

Bill

Go up to your mother, and say 'You suck, and can't cook worth a damn". You think she's going to thank you...?! You think she won't know what is abusive.....?

We all were taught (or most of us!) as kids what is right and wrong. Those rules haven't changed, just we are too lazy and inconsiderate to care. But abuse is still abuse. Just because you can take it doesn't mean you should dish it out......

Ditto...

Diki-

I don't think I'm dishing anything out...

I think most of us speak to our Mothers a little differently than we do to others.

No one walked up to anyone and said hey "insert name" you suck here recently...

Look up the word abuse and tell me if you really think that's what happened here, ok?

Just speaking for me, I appreciate when I get something different than a stock compliment...I really do. I think most professionals who do this for a living do as well. My thing is...hey, I've made my living doing nothing but this for 10+ years...I've heard just about everything...Bottom line, I work like crazy...maybe...just maybe because I've accepted some criticism along the way and improved some things about my act.

I want to be good...I want to be great...I want to get better any chance I get. Someone wants to express a dislike of something...you know what? I'll hear what they have to say...and hopefully be secure enough in myself to really listen to what they're saying. Maybe its crap...maybe they have a point. I want to be receptive and open to all feedback. I've been dissapointed by feedback from other musicians...but surprised by feedback from non musicians...Maybe I'm playing a tune too fast for the proper dance tempo, maybe I'm too loud, etc...If I get too caught up in the "how" someone says something to me I may miss entirely the "what" they're trying to convey...and then I've blown an opportunity to improve because I let my ego get in the way.

I fully endorse using good manners and not making anyone feel bad for the hell of it. Respect should always be part of relationships...I think you can show someone respect by having a frank and candid talk with them about something you perceive as a problem or a weakness. I think its patronizing to avoid real substantive dialog because someone's feelings might get hurt.



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-01-2006).]

Bill from Dayton,
BRAVO!!!!WELL SAID!!!
miami Mo

You honestly think that ISN'T abusive.....?

There's the problem in a nutshell - maybe I'm just from an older generation, but the way I was brought up, there's no way that could be said and not taken as rude in the extreme.

The problem seems to be you seem to think that, if you cannot be rude, you cannot express the way you think. No-one is saying don't offer criticism - it's the reason we post music here in the first place. The problem is, you can't seem to figure out a way to say it that isn't rude. That's a problem with your writing skills, not with your ability to offer criticism.

The fact that we CAN somehow seem to get our opinions to our mothers without offending them just illustrates that the ability is there, but so many posters here obviously can't be bothered to show any respect to their fellow members here at SZ. It isn't that they CAN'T, it's that they just don't care.

You could write to your boss, and offer criticism if it was asked for, but I guarantee you would NEVER use the words that get posted here if you wished to continue being employed! You would find a way to say it politely.

That's all we expect here - some degree of mutual respect. Please keep offering your opinion to those who seek it (and even those that don't!) but just pretend (if you can't actually bring yourself to REALLY respect the poster) that they are someone you don't want to offend.

--------------------------------------------------------

I could have said all of the above in a FAR more blunt and insulting way, and it would still have expressed my meaning, but you would have taken it far differently than you did. THAT is why it is worth the effort to find a more respectful way to say EXACTLY the same thing.........

Diki-

1) I don't recall ever being rude or accused of being rude to anyone on this forum...ever.

2) Your analogy about writing my boss doesn't work well. One is a professional business relationship which requires a certain form of communication. The forums are far more relaxed. My writing skills have served me just fine throughout my career in corporate America and the 10+ years I've been doing music for my living.

3) Who are you to presume that I don't respect others who are posting here? What examples could you provide of this alleged disrespect or rudeness.

Ironic how I've received several private emails from both sides of the Scott/Taike thing complimenting me on my input. I have also seen a couple public responses also endorsing my postings.

Your response is a little baffling, I'm afraid.

Bill in Dayton

Musicians who post their playing/singing clips here are
LOOKING FOR LOVE IN ALL THE WRONG PLACES

Who decides what is abusive.....?

Nigel does!

Bill, I am not accusing you of using the offensive, or rude, example that YOU posted. You were, I am sure, just using it as an example. Unfortunately, you were using it as an example of a comment you thought was 'closer, but still not abusive', and as such, tacitly approving it for general forum use.

Personally, I think it crosses the line, and many would agree with me, particularly if it was THEY that had someone say that about them.... If you still disagree, and think language of that kind is acceptable here at SZ, you are welcome to use it and discover what others would think of you. (I know you probably wouldn't, but endorsing it as fine for others to say is a bit hypocritical). I think it is perfectly fine for us to say, 'this is language I would not use, and I would not approve someone else saying it either'.

Unfortunately, forum communication is often LESS respectful than face to face communication, but I applaud Nigel's attempts to try to get us to address each other with a little respect and civility. Neither of those will curtail our ability to criticize, just our impulse to write our thoughtless first ideas down and post them with no care for how they will impact the subject.

I just don't see how raising the level of civility and politeness at this forum will put a damper on anyone's opinion (unless that person actually IS a rude, boorish lout!), and I know it would go a long way towards making this forum once again a friendly place to hang out and shoot the breeze with other people as interested in arrangers and their use as we are.