If you think all there is to using an arranger is holding down a chord and push buttons you are really in the dark. Too much for me to explain if you really think that, which I'm sure you don't.

As far as the cheap/greedy/lazy thing, if you are a hobbiest that may be true, but if you're supporting a family as an entertainer, the odds are WAY against doing that with a "real band".
I tired years ago of teaching songs to three or four other people, then having to replace them, referee arguments among them, provide equipment for them, transport it, set it up, repair it when it breaks, etc., then hearing them gripe because they weren't making enough money.
Now I don't worry that the guitar player must tune up before every song, that the drummer might run off with the bass player's wife, that the one "singer" is jealous because the other got to sing an extra song--and that just scratches the surface of band problems.
Most all of the cheap/greedy/lazy pickers I've known are sidemen in bands.
For every decent band I've heard there must be 1,000 very bad ones. But that's o.k. if you are just having fun. I think that's why I've been working steady for 30 years while the only "real band" I can think of right away that has done that is the Rolling Stones. (Seriously I know there are others, but that doesn't support my argument.)
A couple of weeks ago I booked a job and they insisted that I have a four-piece group. I hired a wonderful sax player, a world-class guitar player and a truly professional piano player. All I did was set up the p.a., pick the songs, play the chords generating bass and drums and fill in on exotic sounds such as harmonica, pedal steel, vocal oohs and aahs, etc., and sing. Yes it was fun to work with these pros!
By the way, I paid them $100. each and I made $800. Bring on the new arranger keyboards!
Not much to do here but watch Rita dwindle down and rant and rave!
DonM

I own both an arranger and a workstation, along with many soft synths and sample sets. Perhaps I'm no budding Wendy Carlos, but I am a capable player.

I can assure you that the Motif ES is far from being useless for playing in real time. In fact, it's almost become a must have for me whether I play out solo, as half of a duet with a guitarist, or in a band. No arranger I've ever heard can give me close to the quality of sax voices I can get from the ES and the VL card, or allow me to warp a synth sound in real time like I can with the Es and the AN150 or a vsti plug in.

By far I get my best audience response when I sing and play "acoustic" numbers using just the ES or a quality vsti / sample set. The audience seems to recognize that it's just me and the instrument, no additonal backing, and it works. It's real, and I think it shows, probably just from my expressions alone.

I can also add a drum rythym in real time and even change it on the fly with relative ease on the ES, while playing left handed bass and comping or soloing with my right.

As far as a studio use is concerned, I could never rate any arranger as being as useful or important to a studio musician as a dedicated synth or workstation is, providing the user can play keys.

Although it isn't as simple as Diki puts it, I do agree with the idea. Whether we use a midi sequence or an arranger for backing ( I use both with no remorse ), it IS artificial, in that we are reproducing certain parts of a band that we aren't playing in real time. That doesn't mean it's easy to do with an arranger, or that it doesn't take a good deal of talent to pull it off and make it sound just right. On the contrary, trying to control the accompaniment while singing and playing with the right hand in real time( or both hands in full kb mode ), and being entertaining all at the same time can be busy work, and it ain't easy.

As far as your original q Squeak, I think many valid points were made here already. Volume of sales being a big one, along with specialized features .... styles and time spent programming, vocalizers, pattern sequencer that responds to chord changes, etc.

AJ

I pretty much agree with everything that DonM says, and might add the music business pays about the same today as it did 30 years ago. Consequently, when I had a 4-piece country band no one made enough money to buy gasoline and cigarettes, both of which were a lot cheaper 30 years ago.

As for the price of keyboards, in reality, they've actually come down quite a bit over the past decade. Keep in mind that a PSR-5700 sold for about $2,400 when it first came out, and that's from outfits that would offer pros a great discount. Back then the keyboard had 35 styles, most were OK at best, about the same number of voices, most other than the piano were awful, and they were heavy as hell. Today's keyboards are lightweight, have huge numbers of great style files, outstanding voices, lots of storage options, excellent interface systems, user friendly operating systems and much, much more. In retrospect, today's aranger keyboards are the best bargain in town, and for OMB performers, they're the best thing since sliced bread. For the first time in many years we can make enough money to support our families. We ain't gonna' get rich, but there's enough coming in on a regular basis to keep food on the table and put a few bucks aside for retirement at the ripe old age of 108.

As for using a Motif--I know lots of performers, probably a couple hundred, and none use anything other than an arranger for live performances--even the best guys around. I'll stick with the arrangers, and if the 3000 was double the price I would have still gladly paid it, and most likely still bought a pair of them. For what this machine does, especially in comparison to arrangers of just a decade ago, IMHO it's still the best deal in town.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

AJ (bluesplayer),

I was not denigrating the workstations in my post; however, with all its capabilities, even with the drum track running, I don't think you would use the Motif in a solo act as the only keyboard. I am sure that it is useful in playing high-quality solo voices over the accompaniments that your PA80 is playing, or for playing with a band, or a sequencer backup. In other words, if you had to bring a single keyboard to a solo gig, it would probably be the PA80.

I think Don has answered Diki's comments really well. Even if we are using a shortcut by employing a backing style, the reason it is possible is because much of the "original" music is not all that original, and can indeed be matched with the preset musical styles. Oftentimes I hear a song, and can't help but think that its parts sound a lot like a piece of another song (that's why many artists talk about their "influences"). Still, I will second (third) Don and Gary in saying that there is a lot more involved than playing single-finger chords when using an arranger.

Don, I recall you mentioning the drummer running off with the bass player's wife a few times before. Must be a true story, eh?

I too sometimes perform with other musicians, a trumpet player and a vocalist. Initially I tried to put together a band, but found that even some good players do not have what it takes to play in a band that must vary its repertoire, rather than play everything from the sheet music in front of them, so I stick with the few people that like me can do this, and replace the others with the arranger tracks. It's not even a question of money, but musical jelling together.

Regards

Well, that stirred up a (teeny) hornets nest, didn't it!

The fact that I'm here MIGHT clue you in to the fact that I have, and use, arranger keyboards in my profession. I play at least 7 or 8 gigs a week during my playing season (from March through October) and then do session and recording work through the off season. I have just recently moved from a G1000 (which I gigged with for 6 or 7 years) to a G70, which is sonically one of the best keyboards I have owned (my studio rig includes K2500S etc.)

What I DON'T do, is kid myself that things are better using machines rather than musicians. It is, and always will be, a purely financial decision, rather than an artistic one. If the only musicians you can get to play with you are hacks, well perhaps you should look inwards.

And shafting your sidemen by bringing an automatic accompaniment device with you and paying them a pittance, well, need I say that those sidemen are probably looking for an automatic partner, and they sure as s*it won't be calling you after they realize how easy it is to replace YOU!

I use my arranger in both arranger modes and SMF playback, and don't consider there is any difference. What works best for one situation works worse in another.

But if anyone thinks that the pre-canned rhythms and especially basslines, in any arranger keyboard are any kind of substitute for a live rhythm section, all I can say is you don't play with great players often, do you?

Just kidding......... Sorta.........

I think it's overkill with the arranger market in the past few years that some manufacturers release stuff that goes above the price of the "Pro" instruments.Are some of these boards really worth the price tag,or,are they just trying to overcompensate for the fact that the majority market for arrangers still belongs to that 'lil 'ol company that starts with a "C"?

Even in the midst of trying to impress the hell out of us,some of the sounds are still not up to snuff.Is it really too much to ask for accurate orchestral sounds, out of the box, without having to buy "expander boards" or lord knows what?I think the technology has come to that point and there really isn't any excuse for brass that *still* sounds like car horns in this day and age.

I agree Casiobot. Others however have mentioned that maybe it's the numbers produced. Personally I think they jack the prices because they aim at the home player rather than the pro market.

A person shouldn't pay more for an arranger than one would pay for a pro synth. Arrangers are good at the acoustic voices, but cant' really compete with the synth sounds. Also arrangers don't have the sequencing power of a synth (although some here would disagree).

On top of that arrangers seem to have a cheaper build quaility, but they still sell for higher prices.

I don't know if they'll ever really put a reasonable price on them. I think it's time they did though. We talk about the negative sterotype on arrangers from other musicians, but the makers themselves are just as guilty. They obviously want to keep a FINE line between the two models.

Squeak

And arrangers will continue to be priced high unless there is some regulation that would prevent arrangers from being priced high, or the market refuses to by arrangers at that high price-tag. I don’t see either of those scenarios happening any time soon. That is if we are to make anything of the seemingly blind rush for the unknown but popular Tyros II.

Very good point!!!!!! As long as there are people willing to buy the arrangers at such a high price they makers have no reason to drop the prices. Gary made a point about the arrangers in the past being expensive and coming down, but it's the same in the synth department. It just seems that the synth prices are more reasonable considering you weigh the features against the price.

Squeak

Hi I read some industry sales figures a few years ago, don'e remember how long, maybe 5-10 years ago, that said that 'home' keyboards sales were 100 times more than synth sales. I remember them using the term home keyboard but appreciate many of you use them at gigs! If the reverse has happened and synths now out sell 'home' keyboards then it does not say much for the arranger market. How sure are you of your sales figures? I am very surprised by the turn around if true.