While shopping at Guitar Center (Cleveland, Ohio), three different potential customers tried to buy new items (Motiff rack, Korg hard disk recorder and Korg Triton). The problem was that each of the items the store had in stock was returned by a previous customer under GC's return policy. Some were missing manuals and some looked used. The sales clerks told the customers that the items were returned but they were only allowed to sell them at the "new" price with no discount. All of these customers left without purchasing the item.

After the customers left, the sales clerks and store manager were complaing the return policy is killing their sales and their ability to make money. They said they are only allowed to stock a certain number of each item. They are not allowed to order more units until some of the existing stock is sold. Because they are not allowed to discount the returned items, they are not selling them. Because they do not sell them, they are not allowed to order more new units that they can sell. Accordingly, the salesmen are not making any money.

Sales people at the Sam Ash store in Cleveland have told me they have the same problem. Many of their expenseive keyboards have been returned by customers and they are difficult to sell.

The return policy is great for the customer. If it is hurting the retailer as much as the Cleveland stores claim, how long before the policies are changed. (Restocking fees, or store credit)?

I'm a bonafide consumer, but I do NOT agree with a return policy for people who just want to try-before-buy. If you do your homework, you should have the right product for your needs.

I agree once you get a keyboard home and really become intimate with it, you will either love it or hate it and some sort of accomodation should be made by the retailer if you absolutely hate it -- as long as the customer purchases something else. I've heard many people on these forums recommend purchasing the keyboard for 30 days and then return it.

I don't do it, it's not the right thing to do.

Al

people are funny....
If the return policy is offered they WILL use it to it's fullest potential regardless of right or wrong. Money makes people do strange things, sad but true.

Buyer Beware!!!!

A 30-day return policy is pretty liberal. You could knock up a keyboard pretty good and still get your money back - wow! I agree with Al that one should do the research first, then buy. Two weeks is more than enough time to know if you've made a mistake, AND if you've banged it up there definitely should be a penalty - maybe even cancellation of the return policy.

I spend a whole lot of time resarching and debating before I make a major purchase. I make sure I play the keyboard before I buy and know what the high and low prices are. I certainly don't want to buy a damaged, used product especially if it's being sold as new. I have no problem buying a floor model, if that's what it is, but not having manuals and software is unacceptable. As is the case in many areas of retail today, the customer has become the enemy.

The customer is King and the customer is ALWAYS right. If a business does not adhere to that principle its business is going to suffer and deteriorate because of it. Remember Circuit City a few years ago? They decided to do away with the 30 day return and or exchange policy (no strings attached) and instead if somebody brought back an item within 30 days they were charged like a 30% restocking fee. Well as you can imagine people balked and took their business elsewhere. Circuit City soon saw there sales slipping (bigtime) and probably would have gone out of business completely if not for the fact that they relented and restored the no hassle 30 day return guarantee.

I sympathize with GC's sales staff. GC should pay their sales people a salary on top of their commission and the salary should be more than the minimum wage [bracket]. It would draw better qualified personnel to GC giving their establishment a more polished image with more knowledeable workers. That could only benefit their bottom line because more people would shop there by the fact that they "know their stuff".

I also agree with other people's sentiment here. I would NOT just buy a Keyboard to try it out without fully investigating and researching a product first with the intention of really "wanting it and with the intention of keeping it". Then and only then if it just wasn't what I had hoped it would be, I would then return it and most likely with the intention of "exchanging" it for something else instead of just grab the dough and bolt out of there. Which would be okay too but I for one would most likely exchange it for something else usually.

When a person shops at GC or another music store make sure the item you buy is a "Boxed" item. Boxed means it is factory sealed "from the factory". There are enough newbies (and other people who simply don't mind)- around that aren't aware of returned items and their previous history and don't mind buying a returned item. PS: 99% of the time a returned item is going to still be in imaculate condition and is 'guaranteed' to work 100% by the company who sells it, eg., GC, Sam Ash, etc. For those who are more finicky about what they purchase and are more buyer savvy, they should insist on a "Boxed" sealed from the factory item. But make no bones about it; GC, Sam Ash, Music123.com, Zzounds.com, Same Day Music.com, etc. are doing very well financially thank you. If their business model is lacking in any area they either change it for the better (with the mindset that the customer is always considered #1) and building their empire around that principle or they suffer and deteriorate for lack of making and keeping the customer: "is King and ALWAYS right philosophy and their primary business model IMO.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-25-2003).]

I've notice lately that Guitar Center has added some restriction on their 30 day full refund policy. If you buy recording gear or pro workstation keyboards such as Tritons, Motifs, etc., they are now charging a 15% restocking fee with a 14 day return period. Being a small store and knowing how most customers hate not buying new in the box merchandise, I think the chain stores have seen their return policys hurt their bottom line. According to manufactures I've spoken with, changes in return policies are changing all over. Even Costco has posted changes in their policy for refunds from "we will take back anything, anytime, to restrictions in computer refunds, etc. As you have been discusing with these posts, it has been great for the consumer but awful for the retailer because of the try it, use it and return it attitude so many consumers have openly admitted to. Small dealer like myself have a heard time with returns and return policys because of tight cash flow, and lower inventories, but even the big box stores have their problems as well as we are seing now. Here is Guitar Centers policy as taken from their website regarding certain restrictions to their 30 day cash return policy:
"There is a 14-day return period and 15% restocking fee on open-box returns within the following product categories:

• Recording devices - multitrack and mixdown
• Studio monitors
• Rackmount signal processors
• DJ mixers, turntables, and CD players
• Pro workstation keyboards
• Fog machines and lighting effects"
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

I think it's not so much the time, but the condition some of these returns are in. I bought my XP50 from GC many years ago from an open box, but I checked it before I bought to make sure the keyboard was OK and all the lit. and accessories were there. Unfortunately, our society is losing its respect for others. I can't imagine any of US returning used goods in poor condition (because we all seem to take such good care of our stuff anyway), but there certainly are any number of unscrupulous people who would buy a top-of-the-line keyboard, use it on a job, scratch it up, keep the manuals and software (see ebay) and then return it for a refund. What happens when a 'good' customer tries to find one of those TOL boards??? exactly right, "All we have is this scratched up demo with no accessories, and it's only $25 off." My wife works retail and has horror stories of people returning two-year old, worn merchandise for full price - AND GETTING IT. Management says 'yes, we can.' Now THAT sends a signal. Unfortunately, the customer is not always right. I feel a universal tightening of return policies would eventually benefit merchant and (good) customer.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 11-25-2003).]

Another reason that retailers changed some of the 30 day return policies is this: people were "buying" equipment to use for a certain function or event and returning it for a full refund. This was especially true for computers and laptops. Businessmen would just "buy" a very high end laptop to do their presentation and return it before flying home.

Tom G.

What ever happened to the fair trade laws of the 50's 60's 70's etc, Have they been thrown out? Argus Camera Co. of Ann Arbor, Michigan spent millions, ending up in the
Supreme Court, which ruled in their favor.
The ruling was that when a merchant bought
a product from a manufacturer it became their property, and they could give it away if they wanted to. Neither could the company
that made it dictate any selling practices
to the retailer. Must be that discounting
became so prevelent, that the S/C ruling
could not be enforced, and it became lost in the shuffel. We live in a different world, today where advertising is 90% lies, and List Price is a joke. One rule still bears the truth however: "Let the buyer beware."
ARJ

GC should have inspected the returned keyboards and should have charged a restocking fee for lack of manual. Maybe they shouldn't have even accepted the return of a keyboard that wasn't in new condition. If they didn't inspect the keyboard and make sure everything is there, it is their fault, and they should take the loss.

I don't mind buying open box and paying the full price as long as everything is immaculate.

Beakybird