Any plans for a weighted 88-key TYROS or PA-80 without speakers (or with if they want)? It seems I have to set my self towards an arranger if I want more realistic sounds as opposed to synthy arp sounds. Why is it all the big producers use MOTIF and TRITON for recording and producing? Can't you get the same quality on arrangers? The arrangers focus more on traditional sounds, but then I can't get one with 88 keys. Why is that? And don't mention the KORG SP-500 or the Yamaha PF-1000 with it's arranger like features because it has NO PITCH BEND OR MOD WHEEL! What good is that? Why can't someone make me an 88weighted combination arranger-synth workstation with sampling, vocal harmony, arpeggiators, drum rhythms, auto-accom, and plenty of real-time control instead of those d**n menus to navigate. "Look, wow, we have so few buttons. Our keyboards aren't cluttered up!" But you spend ten years navigating to what you want. Keyboards should be like your stereo system. If the volume is too high you turn it down. If the bass is too low you turn it up. You don't punch up F1, then menu 2, and select volume, then scroll your wheel down to 42.56db with a gated compressor. You simply twist a knob. I don't care, fill up the whole darn console with buttons and sliders and knobs blocked into sections (rhythm, voices, sequencer, mixer, arpegg, sampling, etc.) and then from there you get hands on control knobs and sliders and maybe a few screen menus when necessary to get more detailed. RAM? I don't care, make it 400mb ram. GIVE me sounds! Don't waste my ram on a crappy sax no one will ever use. Either leave it off or spend the extra ram and give me a good one!

I just want to play, compose, sequence, record, publish. I don't have time to modify every sound to the last nanosecond of envelope and LFO and EQ and whatever. Just give me a huge bank of sounds tailored for many different uses and a few knobs to instantly fix a sustain or vibrato or leslie or wah wah-- something that makes sense for each sound.

I just want to be a musician, not a technician. I'm losing the art of writing music because I'm becoming an editor of sound. That's not my job--it's the keyboard manufacturer's job! Don't give me chemicals and numbers to formulate pigments, just give me plain and simple paint! Give me a sonic palette to paint my aural masterpieces and quit giving me all this crap that slows me down!

Anyway, I still am wondering if there is an 88key arranger? Hmmmm....

[This message has been edited by seanbaker (edited 01-09-2003).]

Yes there is at least one and I auditioned it: Roland KF-90. Expensive, but I liked it. Acoustic pleasant styles, great keyboard action.

-- José.

I think they maybe will make an 88 key Arranger someday but I doubt if it will be "weighted". See Squeak_D's post on "Weighted Keys on a PSR" to see why. Even Semi-weighted would probably be out of the question for the same reasons. But I think more real-time control, better key "feel", and obviously better sounds would spark a greater public interest in Arrangers IMO and would give the musician greater creativity.

Sounds are what its all about and to have the ability to play those sounds in a creative real-time fashion without encumbrance would be a boon to the Arranger market and also if Manufacturers would take more labors in producing better quality sounds, get rid of the limiting factors of not enough Polyphony (Note drop off in the middle of a performance is a bummer), and add more necessary features, ie., USB 2.0/Firewire, Spdif Output, superb quality "built-in" speakers, and yes, an 88 key version would be nice too ,etc., would all be a step in the right direction IMHO. Hopefully are friends at Yamaha and others are working towards that goal.

Mike

Hi there!

I agre with you. It's totally wrong that you have to be a technician to get some music out of your instrument. But it's much, much more economic for the keyboard producer.

If you looking for a 88 key workstation... Why not the GEM SK880?
http://gem.generalmusic.com/en/products/sk/sk880.html

It's a little heavy but a real quality instrument.

regards
/ Bosse

This topic has been up lately about arrangers with weighted keys.... I posted one and there were some pretty good points made by others as well. I agree that it was pointless to not at least add a pitchbend wheel to that Korg (or at least a joystick, which is what Korg mainly uses). However, the Yamaha PF-1000 does allow pitchbending.. Keep in mind that digital is set up like a piano with 3 pedals.. One of the functions of a pedel is pitchbending. I can say if you're use to doing this on a wheel or stick, the pedal takes some adjusting to. One of the main things we talked about with the weighted keys is when you have other instruments involved that are much harder to play on with those keys like saxes, drums, bases, and guitars. Many of us here don't just play the keyboard.. I also play drums and guitar, so I know how difficult it is to do this on weighted keys. Having to edit the keyboards sounds is completely subjective really.. Regardless of what keyboard you choose there will be sounds you think are perfect and sounds you may feel need a little changing. It's all in personal tastes. It would be nice to have that one arranger or synth that has sounds taht are perfect and need no work, and huge amounts of memory, ect.. However, you don't really see this because there would be no way to keep the price reasonable to the consumer.. If you had a keyboard say that had 88 weighted keys, 400mbs of sounds, 80 gig hard drive, CD burner, Sequencer with unlimited tracks and memory (based on available memory), flawless DSP that could run a huge number of insert effects at the same time, touch screen, vocalizer, and all the bells and whistles you're going to be investing THOUSANDS of dollars for this thing.. Look at the price of the upper line arrangers like the Tyros, 9000 Pro, GEM Gen., Korg PA-80, Ketron SD-1, Technics KN-7000... These all cost several thousand dollars, and imagine what that price tag would be for the arranger that has EVERYTHING that allows you to do the work of a complete studio from the keyboard... It will be very expensive.

Squeak

Well my theory was blown out of the water wasn't it But the question is how easy would it be to play a guitar, sax, or any other instrument sound besides a Piano? Has anybody here been able to determine that? Also any easy portability is constrained beyond reason. The KF-90 is over 86 lbs. making it a real back breaker especially if you have to tote it around 3 or 4 times a week. And the Gem is not far behind at almost 75 lbs.

Wouldn't be nice if there could be a way to turn on a Hammer Action effect when playing Piano and turn it off when playing another instrument sound? The GC in San Diego might have the KF-90 on display. If they do I might check it out to see for myself how limiting a weighted arranger is on playing different sounds, (sax, guitar, 'violin', etc.

Regards,
Mike

I've tried playing the sounds on Clavinovas. It is very restrictive to me, but I am used to light touch.
DonM

Good point! I've talked to people about this before.. It would be awsome to have a keyboard that mechanically could give the feel of both weighted and synth weighted feel. It wouldn't even have to be a perfect graded hammer action, but something that could ad a more realistic feel to to the keys and then be turned off at the push of a button would be great (and expensive too)

Squeak

There is a talk about newer models for genesys. I wonder if 88 keys is one of them.

But anyway, I use sk880ps keyboard from GEM. It has 88 keys, hammer action weighted keys... The keyboard has served me very well. I like it very much.

In the future, I think I will be buying two keyboards at the same time. Light weighted arranger and dedicated 88 keys controler.

Anyone know where I can hear sound samples of this thing?

I guess this brings up a point I have never understood. How is composing a song using arpeggiated drums and bass lines on a snyth different from using the auto-accomp drums and bass (without the other parts)? All I really need is auto drums and bass to help me start my song. I orchestrate all the other parts myself. It just seems the style of the arranger makes more sense intuitively from a musical form standpoint (intro, main, fill, end, etc.). The snyth workstations may be able to create the same thing but you're left with a blank palette in the sequencer as the Korg mentions. I think the best songwriting from me comes with a little help from the back-up band department, them my ideas flow better. I guess it's up to how each person works. I jsut would prefer the style of the arranger included with synthy arp type things like the TRITON can do. I'm not talking about basic fingered arps I can play myself into the style creator of an arranger, but the types that you can't play. But also needing good realistic instrument sounds, I find the voices on arrangers tend to be better than on synths.

I guess to do what I want to do I have to buy an arranger and a synth.

Show me the money....

Yamaha PF100 + 500 + 1000

Korg SP500

Roland Fp3

To name a few . Dano

------------------
Piano Man's Music City
624 Frederick Rd .
Catonsville Md. 21228
410 747 0200
danosmusic@yahoo.com

seanbaker,

when it comes to sounds and styles, sk880 is an older keyboard. It has the same sounds as SK760, WK6, WK8... the whole WK/SK series was replaced by genesys.

but for me, the sounds are still usable. A true artist can take whatever he has and create music out of it.

"A true artist can take whatever he has and create music out of it". (posted by SK880user)
------------------------------------

Sk,
Well said.. I've seen people use Casio CTK's and they completely blew my mind on how well they used them and the sound they were able to bring out.. In the end it doesn't matter what keyboard you really play on.. It's the person sitting behind the thing that really brings it to life..

Squeak

There is no pitch bend or modulation wheel on the Roland KF90 or on any of the Yamaha or Roland keyboards that Dan O mentioned.
The Generalmusic SK880 does have the wheels and everything else you want and Ketron makes a baby grand version of their popular SD1 keyboard which has 88 weighted keys but also has a pretty black ebony cabinet you might not like. I don't remember if this product has the modulation and pitch bend controllers like the SD1 though. I'll have to check this out.
Don't expect Generalmusic to come out with an 88 key version of the Genesys anytime soon. Only the 61 key non speaker model will be introduced next week at NAMM.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, california

The Ketron product is called the DG100 and it comes in polished black or polished white. It looks like a little baby grand with a pop up top and three pedals attached. It has all the features of the SD1 including the modulation and pitch bend wheels, sampler, 16 track sequencer, editable sounds, drawbar organ, 309 styles with 4 variaitons each. In other words.........maybe the arranger for those wanting the full 88 key hammer action feel and a beautiful look in the living room! You can see this prduct at the www.ketron.it website and click on new products and click on DG100.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene

Why don't you give the Korg SP500 a try?

It's an 88-key, weighted, hammer action arranger. The sound and styles are very similar to the PA-80, not as many styles or sounds, but enough to be called an arranger(?)

..rb

because it doesn't have a pitch bend or mod wheel. It's a great keyboard though it appears. I'd have to demo it first.

Thanks. That's what I want...if I could get it without the baby grand case, but it does have the pitch bend and mod wheel. Is it the same voices and styles exactly as the SD-1, I wonder?

Anyone have the SD-1? How are the sounds compared to other arrangers? What are the ups and downs of this machine? What sounds do you hate and favor over other arrangers? Compared to the mega voices on the TYROS? I wish I had a store here that had everything so I could just sit and compare all week long. Hmm....

I own a PSR2000 and a Kurzweil pc88. The latter has a great 88 hamer action keyboard. The former has great sounds and a lot of options. At home, I almost never actually play on de Y2k. I use midi so I can play on de pc88 and listen to the Y2k. For me this is a great combination, The sturdiness of the Kurzweil and the options (sequencer, sounds, etc) of the Y2k. At smaller gigs I only bring the Y2k. For more important things I bring them both. This way I have the best of both worlds.

One answer that would solve just about every need mentioned would be a Yamaha S90 and a QY100 or even better a QY700. I'm also a Kurzweil fan and have enjoyed used PC88's and PC2's with arrangers on stage.

However, I pulled a muscle in my back last year for the first time while carting around my Kurzweil and took that as a warning - backs don't last forever and it doesn't take much to end your 88-note keyboard moving days for good. The Yamaha 9000 Pro arranger at 45 pounds is still a pretty good 76-note synth-action compromise to heavier 88-note weighted-action keyboards with less features.

Is this a sequencer or an auto-accomp module?

Wow! I always found Ketron products to be Ugly with a giant U. But this baby's got the looks! Any idea how much it costs?

It's about $7,000.00 in ebony.
Today, I was told that there might very well be a Generalmusic Genesys with 88 hammer keys showing up at the NAMM show on Thursday. If this is true......wow!
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

Anyone have the Genesys? I have a few questions.
1. Does it have portamento control over sounds?
2. In the multi-track recording, are you limited to only one track of digital audio or can you record multiple audio tracks too?
3. How much is this thing?



[This message has been edited by seanbaker (edited 01-11-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by The Pro:
QY100 or even better a QY700.

SeanBaker: Is this a sequencer or an auto-accomp module?

It is both.

How are the realism of the styles compared to other new keyboards? I don't mean the sounds (that would depend on the keyboard connected to it), but the styles and how they translate in a pro synth like the S90.

Check out the Roland XV-88. It can do pretty much what any arranger can do even though it's not geared to be an arranger per se.

As for it being more economical for a keyboard manufacturer not to make a lot of factory presets for those of you who dislike tweaking, that's not really true.

Sean: It's been a long time since I heard the QY700 and I don't know how it compares today. I remember that it sounded pretty good and it's the top of the line in the QY series but that's about all. Here's Yamaha's website for it (no demos though):
http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gSEQ00005QY700

The specs for that thing look very nice, but it seems that the voice set is just XG.. Does it have a set of panel voices and an XG voice set? Anyone know what the memory is for the voices? This would be something perfect for an 88 key controller. You could use the keypad on the QY to tap out drum tracks, and or use an external drum machine and use the controller for the rest. I wonder what this thing sounds like.. I've seen it on ebay, and it's still pretty pricey..

Squeak

Here's a link to reviews for the QY-700 if anyone is interested.. It seems to have auto accomp capabilites.. Not sure if they mean auto accomp as it pertains to arranger though..

http://www.harmony-central.com/Synth/Data/Yamaha/QY-700-01.html

I have a Roland XV-88 and it's not a arranger keyboard!! It's a synth!! It's like a module from the XV series but with keys, 88 piano action keys-the same found on the RD-600 and A90, I think.
It has an arpegiattor, but it still isn't a arranger keyboard in any way!...

The sounds on the SD1? They're great! Hear them... and hear the GREAT GREAT styles from this machine!
I bought my SD1 1 or 2 months ago. I didn't like PSR9000 and didn't even look at the tyros because I couldn't live with only 61 keys.

Holy Crap! I just checked some sites.. musiciansfriend, zzounds, 8th street, and this thing is selling for like $1,200... Geez.. All it has is an XG voice set, and the unit itself is quite dated.. That's a high price for the QY-700 if you ask me.. You can pick them up on ebay from $600-$700 tops.... If this thing had panel voices and a few other features I could see the price, but it only has the XG voice set..

Squeak

The Genesys has portamento control. The hard disk recording is limited to a single stereo track of mono track and the only way to record multiple tracks is to record a track, then save it to a CD and then reload it to hard drive and record another track. This is not a great way, but all there is to get more than one track.
I hate to get on the price topic with Genesys because there is no published retail price. Each dealer has established their own price. Contact a dealer if you want to get their price. I have been asked to not quote Generalmusic prices on this website. Please contact me for my price if you are interested.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

I'm rather shocked & disappointed to hear this, especially because GEM published a retail list price for their other flagship keyboard, the Promega 3, which lists at: $2,995 US dollars (according to Keyboard Magazine 11/02).

This is the SAME beef I've had for years with Technics. It really gulls me to walk into a Technics dealership to see the price tag on a KN7000 at $6,900, and then have the dealer tell me that he will offer me the deal of the century: $4,500, but only if I buy TODAY, knowing full well that the dealer cost is closer to $2,000.

Ok, some here may defend the dealer saying that's the buyers responsibility to beware, but without a manufacter set retail list (ceiling) price, this just encourages overly greedy dealers (I'm defintely NOT referring to George Kaye or Dan O'Neil here, of course) to jack up the prices as high as they think they can get away with.

Most arranger Keyboard manufacterers I know of (ei: Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc) publish & provide a suggested list price, which at least gives us, the consumer, some idea of what the dealer should be charging, and a point of which we can negotiate DOWN from.

WHY does Technics (and now GEM, with the Genesys?!) choose NOT to provide the consumer with retail list prices. What really is the advantage of this other than encourage dealers to inflate prices as high as they can?


Scott

Scotty: you raise good points but the fact is that informed consumers that can learn how to operate a sophisticated instrument on their own like you and I are not the normal customers of music stores. Professional musicians make up a very small percentage of business actually... most consumers are walk-in, Mom & Dad or grandparents, churches, beginners, hobbyists, etc. Some shoppers would compare a $10,000 home upright piano to a Technics KN7000 priced at $6,900 and figure the Technics offered them more for the money (especially when it goes on sale for $4,500). They always expect the dealer to take the time to answer any questions they'll have about how to operate their new keyboard for days, months and sometimes years after. I used to sell keyboards at MSRP to cover my support time, and even then that didn't always cover my time once the questions started. The worst problem was selling Yamaha PSR keyboards at list price only to have Circuit City and Sam's Club sell the same keyboards at deep discount and refer their customers to us to answer questions! We purposely started selling keyboards that only MI stores could get after that.

The market for expensive high-end technical keyboards isn't really that large (compared to the guitar market for example) especially in smaller markets, so some KN7000's take up retail space for months. This is why you almost never see a Yamaha 9000 Pro on a display floor. Maintaining retail space costs money that you get back only in the long run if the keyboard sells at a good margin.

Sure, music stores can't sell a KN7000 to US for $6,900, but I have no problem with them selling it for that to anyone they can.

Anyone ever compared the sounds of the genesys to the SD-1, 9000pro, or Tyros? Those seems to be the other keyboards I'm interested in for sound quality? In terms of styles, would I be wrong in saying that probably the SD-1 and the Tyros have the most realistic? Or do all these keyboards now use sampled drum grooves in conjuntion with midi drum styles?

If Genesys comes out in 88 keys. I think I'm sold once I hear some sound comparisons. Their websites audio page seems to not be completed.

So George, you're saying that if I have some midi style tracks, record a vocal wave, save it to disk, then I can load it back up into the multi-track song file and then record another wav file along with that one with both playing together? that would be cool. If not, something they should consider for the 88key version.

Take a look at the Yamaha PF1000 and PF500. 88 key arrangers, though not quite portable.

Yes, you can record a vocal track to some midi song tracks, save it and then convert it back to a wav file and then do it again, and again, and again, however eventually you might start to loose some quality if you do this many times.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

I do not believe that the harddrive size on Genesys allows for multiple audio tracks. Therefore, I believe that audio recording is intended simply as one stereo track that represent the audio of all the midi track at once. Now that is useful if you want to make a very quick demo. I do that all the time.

But for those who DREAM or think they want to use multitrack recording of audio, please research construcing a DAW or buying one of those korg/roland/tascam machines.

I have constructed a studio at my home and I use Cubase SX and Wavelab to do that.

SK880 User,
You are correct about the size of the hard drive not being large enough to keep doing what I am suggesting on the hard drive. I beleive it was explained to me by Generalmusic that you save your song on a CDRW and then keep using the tracks from the CD to add more recording. This way, once you've saved the recording with midi tracks and audio, you can then erase what's on the hard drive because you've created a CD file and you keep putting the current CD file on the hard drive with more audio recording. I think this is why I was told that eventually with too many tracks the sound would loose some quality because of the number of times you would be creating a CD and some data compression might come into play...
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

I use Cool Edit for my multi-track recording. This whole topic brings up an interesting idea: Someone should combine a music production synth/workstation with a digital recording workstation into one machine. That would be really cool....and heavy!