Of course not...to me its all about a personal form a creating music...anyone that says otherwise will need to explain otherwise.
In this high tech world there's just too much gear out there to create music......who's right or wrong?

Although this topic has been done to death (wish they'd bring out a new arranger so we'd have something to talk about), I'll give you the definitive answer; YES. It is your way of telling the world that you can't hack a solo piano gig.

Opinions may vary .

chas

And what about those who could hack a solo piano job but still choose to use arrangers or SMFs? I think the answer is a big NO. Styles, file and programs are creative tools. Just because I choose to make my music sound more like a band than a solo doesn't lessen my skills. Guitar players use drum machines and looping machines and effects; it's no different.

No. Even though there is prerecorded music playing along, at least we are contributing in our own way, in some fashion. Depending on how much creativity one uses, it is TOTAL talent - very few can do.

Now Karaoke is a different story

Cassup, trust me, I was being facetious and know that there are many fine musicians on this board. But sometimes when you see a subject that has been discussed SO many times before (always without resolution), the devil just encourages you to throw something out there that's guaranteed to get a knee-jerk response. Please don't ever take me too seriously.

chas

BTW, on an ARRANGER KEYBOARD board, do you really expect to get any answer other than "no, it's not cheating".

chas

Oh course.....there are some who in purist circles feel anything but playing styles is cheating, faking or whatever they want to call it which is totally ridiculous especially when you analyze what is actually being done when playing an arranger KB. I do it all on stage every day play &/or sing w/styles,smf,mp3's & I laugh at naysayers .......I'm entertaining audiences with tools of the trade plain & simple for over 40 yrs....even before Arrangers where ever mainstream & will continue to do so till I drop dead on stage doing what I've always loved.
I will applaud anyone who makes a good heart felt honest effort to perform in any fashion, using any means possible so that my senses & emotions are touched somehow.....that's what it means to be a performing musician. Like I always say...
"let me hear & see what ya got baby"




------------------
________________________

Donny

� Choose a job you Love, and you will Never have to Work a day in your life! �
________________________
And HUG Someone tight Everyday....
You'll Feel better afterwards

No, I don't see it as cheating. But to me -and I've mentioned this before- it's all about the arrangement. The best styles (and voices) in the world will still sound boring if the arrangement is boring. Styles, voices AND the song itself are tools. It's what we do with the tools that makes all the difference. Take a look at the great Big Band leaders. Most, if not all, were great arrangers and that's what made them famous. A great arrangement creates a pleasing sound.

Taike

Taike I'll agree with you .....you can arrange all you want BUT you MUST be a good well rounded versatile Player to make it all come together ....that's what the great master Big Band Leaders did ....they first had GREAT Players assembled....Then they Arranged them into Fantastic Music & Song

True, Donny. I've been fortunate to have had a very good music education: theory, counterpoint, harmony and classical organ. I wasn't exactly into classical organ but it was all they had until they opened a theatre organ class. I'm happy that I had the education, though, for it taught me a lot, especially to have a very good independent LH (a must for playing counter melodies) and PD (both feet).
My main problem is that I am pretty much helpless when it comes to technology.

Only use the arranger sparingly, and won't use anything but styles. I walk out of a restaurant or other venue if I see a laptop on the bandstand.

No statement here about what's right or wrong...just letting people know the way I handle it.

This approach might not work for different venues or players, but I've worked 51 years now as the top paid person in the area with only 9 weeks off.


Works for me!


Russ

Do you check what is being done with the laptop first, as it may be just supplying sounds (Triggered by the Midi outs of the keyboard as the artist plays the notes) from various VST instruments, and so is just expanding the sound pallet available on his keyboard.
There are many other things a laptop can do for the musician as well, so don�t assume that it is just for pre-recorded backings.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Be true to yourself. If you feel that making music a certain way is wrong, then don't do it. As far as your audience is concerned, at least the average audience folks, they couldn't care less whether the music is Tivo-ed, midi-ed or whatever. They simply want to be entertained. Give them good music with a good arrangement, the right kind of music for the venue and audience, put your heart into it, and they'll be happy and so should you.

Glenn

No offense taken, Chas. I love being the devil's advocate, so I understand when others do the same.

Russ, I only use the laptop to hold lyrics files, and sometimes to play music while I'm on break. I can remember hundreds of song lyrics, but I have many hundreds for which I need a security blanket.
Back to the thread, I don't care who thinks I'm cheating or not cheating. If they are in the audience, it means I'm working and they're not!
DonM

Don, I don't use a lap-top for lyrics, I just screw them up!

Oh well,


R.

Russ,
BTW, the wedding is over, so I'll be able to install OS on the G70 and get it shipped to you in the next couple of days.
DonM

Hey, Bill...really doesn't matter what they are used for...I just don't like laptops on bandstands...nothing more than that. Everyone should do what's comfortable. I do, and I avoid what I don't like. That's the good thing about getting older. You can be obnoxious as hell and no one can do a damn thing about it!


Russ

Thanks, Don. No hurry. Give the kids my best. Would have played "another one bites the dust" if asked!

R.

Good points Bill....dont judge a book by its cover

Don you sound a little on the defensive when the LT question is asked........

I'm a multi talented entertainer....& proud of it....I can play arranger & sing my ass off with the best of them & as a pro singer will also perform with SMF & with my own MP3 backing tracks on a LAP TOP without playing at all when I go walk out into an audience to whooo the ladies singin....
Man if you ain't doing it all your missing out on some real satisfaction when you feel the charge of the Live audience up close & personal.....in the same fashion as Russ would walk out on a Laptop musician of which I could never understand...but on the other hand I would leave purists at the door & do my thing baby. Country , Disco, Rock, Latin, Ballroom, bring it ALL on Im ready for ya....with all MY Music makin Tools Oh Yeah!!!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

AMEN!!!

For the most part..the people that knock a laptop, are the same people that never used one...
and do not have a clue..how it can aid in a great show...
You can play just as much as you do now...Just keeps things organized..

Also allows you to tackle tunes..you couldn't possibly pull off with your two hands , and two feet..

As mentioned, not only for sequence playback, but your own backing tracks with harmony via MP3...Lyrics for us folks that can't remember..
And as Bill mentioned..it is our sound source to play better sounds than on our arranger boards[excluding my G70]

Here is another example....Last night at our new gig in a popular spot in Wildwood...we[I] had guest[unexpected], that came on stage[they asked first, but how can we say No]...
The first guy , was a fella named Valli, he seems to be popular..I think he is associated with the Four Seasons .
He came on stage with a super hot lady...carrying his own track playback unit that the young lady operates..She also controlled volumes [after I showed her the controls]..

The next guest..were the Intruders..they were great..BTW without my laptop, none of this would have been possible...None of this was planned, but this show went off like it was rehearsed..

The third act was our local doo wop group the Aquanets..They also did a great job..

Then the fun began...Valli and the Intruders did Four season stuff ..The intruders did their own spin with harmonies..

Then it was Valli, Intruders , Aquanets, and also the best trio in Wildwood[Just in Time.]

I had to mix so many mics ..I worked my butt off for 4 solid hours...

Laptops have their place...believe me..

Fran sounds like a fun time for sure.....
If I wasnt on a gig myself last night I would have shot down for the show.....last time I sw Frankie was on the Sopranos

Fugeddabouttit !

Isn't that what they call karaoke? backing tracks?

same thing Mike most of mine are customized & I can really sing .............
It all depends on the gig ....I play so many different kinds of gigs without versatility you'd be sitting home crying in your beer that you'd wish you did it all.....dont get me wrong I love a night of just playing Piano cocktail music Sinatra, Bennett, standards & slow Bossa......but I also love to power it up for a full blown 500 PP wedding with pounding disco & Rock N Roll too & everything in between like a night of Latin ballroom dancing, I love it all after all I could have a "REAL" job...... .....you better have a good bag of tricks or your Circus will have only ONE Ring instead of THREE!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

Mike , the backing tracks just allow you to leave the band home..where in the world would I have added any more people last night

Valli, 4 Intruders, 4 Aqunets, and 3 Just in Time...

No,no, no, I agree with you I've been a Dj and a KJ, as well as a live musician for over 40 years, I say use whatever gets the job done.

But I laugh at the guys that use all that stuff but then say they hate karaoke or hate DJ's, it's all entertainment, and THE ENTERTAINER is the most important part of that.
I've been doing midi since before GM and before you could find them for free on the 'net. I remember buying them for 10 bucks apiece,you got a deal if you bought more. Midi hits, tran tracks.
But if I'm going out I want a live band over a midi band. (Unless Valli shows up!)
But us musicians are harder to please I guess.




[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 07-09-2007).]

I know Don is great at what he does. I'm sure others are as well. My problem is, all of the people I've seen using a laptop use it as a crutch...couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag. They're all style and no substance. The show's the thing, and that's not necessarily bad, but for me, there's got to be more than fluff. That may work most of the time, but not for me, ever. I won't do it and I won't listen to it. Everyone has a style and a preference. I'm not trying to sell my approach as the only correct one, but I will support my decision by comparing my work schedule and lifetime income with anyone who would like to do so. Fran, it's only my preference, but I wouldn't stay for a Frankie Vali or Do Wop act...just not interested!

Again, this is ONLY my preference. I don't want to listen to disco, country, hear banter, etc., and I won't participate either as a player or as a listener.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


Russ

ditto!

Russ, I was at a Seniors Dance the other night and noticed that the keyboard player had a laptop. She was using it to read the words of the songs that she was playing!

BrisbaneJim

No Valli and no doo wop......boy I hope I don't turn into you guys when I get old..

Fran.............I agree 500% & beyond!!

The advantages of using a laptop for performance are very convincing. The problem I have with having a laptop, especially if it's front and center, and whatever it's there for, is that someone's gonna come up and say "Do you have 'such and such' song in there", as he glances at the laptop. Now you're Mr. DJ.

Whats the big deal.....say yes and play it.....Ive had people ask me you got so & so song in there when I dont use the laptop & just have the arranger KB.Unless your playing a solo acoustic instrument you'll always be a DJ or soughts plain and simple to to most people your only controlling an electronic device with buttons & keys....your not gonna fool anyone when they hear more then one instrument at time , instead be proud , do it very well, make em super happy and have fun!.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

i have seen many keyboard DJs alternate between playing in arranger mode / midis / and then just playing MP3s etc. not an uncommon thing at all...

Nick its all good ....
its all about making music......
its all fun to do.

It quite amazes me how often I read disparaging remarks about the audience.

Please stop acting like that the audience couldn't care less, has no clue and 'only' wants to be 'entertained'. If they pay for live entertainment than that's what they deserve. Granted, some may not care but you're supposed to please every paying customer.

You'd be surprised how many musicians there might be in the audience who know exactly what's going on. Don't assume that you're the only musician just because you're on stage banging on a keyboard. Don't assume that you're the only singer just because you're the one with the microphone. And don't assume that you know it all or are the best. You'd be surprised at what dormant talent there's out there.

Three times I've witnessed the guy on stage, after being heckled about his playing or singing, daring the heckler to come on stage and do a better job. Well, each time those hecklers were either far better players or singers. So, never underestimate your audience.

An entertainer with a laptop? There was a time they did without so why the need for one now? A laptop would seem abundant to me. Technology already makes making music easier. As for lyrics, a lyrics sheet is all you need.

You wouldn't want to be heckled by someone that HE or SHE can play LIVE and prove it, would you?

Taike

Can I get some of your self confidence pills ?

zuki

having a laptop makes the job alot EASIER... why carry folders and folders of lyrics pages when you can have it all on one laptop??

theres no disrespect in that. Only the people who really are living in the past and refuse to accept change and technology's advancement are the one's who have this mentality that a musician / entertainer shouldn't be using technology to assist.

your using the internet to speak your voice. why not try and become a public speaker to do it the old fashioned way?

Nick

laptop is just one of the tools.....multiple keyboards, samplers, vocal boards, & everything but the kitchen sink is being used on stage every night...why use it? because its available!
yeah we did with out airplanes years agao and lights & electricity so why do we need it now? give me a brake.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

Three times I've witnessed the guy on stage, after being heckled about his playing or singing, daring the heckler to come on stage and do a better job. Well, each time those hecklers were either far better players or singers. So, never underestimate your audience.


But Taike..who was getting paid, and who was buying the drinks to pay him..

A Laptop is just one of the tools.....multiple keyboards, samplers, vocal boards, & everything but the kitchen sink on the market is being used on stage every night mostly computer driven if you havnt noticed...why use it?
because its available!
yeah we did with out airplanes years ago and lights & electricity so why do we need it now? give me a break. Read the title of the thread,is it cheating? its not all about laptops.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

Bring it on, baby! But...no need getting upset, eh?

Uh, Donny, who plays the keyboard when you're wooing the ladies off-stage? Or do you have such long fingers? And you call that LIVE entertainment?

LIVE in my book means you play it yourself. I have nothing against styles, they are tools that come with the board.

So what if that laptop freezes or malfunctions?

Taike

hey taike what dont you understand ? I have repeated many times that I do it all playing live & and mixing it up with singing in so many ways, if you dont think singing is live then thats your problem .....I'm proud of it...btw, Ive yet to see or hear you offer any of your work to the SZ? let me know when that comes about then I'll continue....upset with you, dont make me laugh....just another purist attitude that I leave at the door as I said in my previous post..
gotta go now...
I got a few laptop gigs to play.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-09-2007).]

What if there is a LIVE band playing and the building has a power outage? I have seen it happen before...

Come on, Donny, I don't think it's necessary for you to hear me play. By the way, I play more than in just the key of C. Your knowledge about technology is beyond me, I give you that. Don't, however, think that I don't know how to play. I didn't get my degree given on a silver platter. I had to earn it! Just because I chose a different line of work doesn't mean that my talents are any less than yours. Not that I can sing worth a lick. Not every pro impresses me, you know. There are those that are pros because they're getting paid for playing and there are those that play like pros but are homeplayers only. Please don't make the word more than it implies.

You know very well that my point was that "live" should mean "live" and not faking it. I have no problem DomM or others using one for his lyrics. As for me, a sheet will do.

Nick, since you mention 'band' I assume that there's at least a guitar player. He'll just go unplugged and the show goes on. And why do you think Unplugged was so popular?

Taike

What a storm in a teacup...

It's simple... Unless EVERYTHING the audience hears is played live, it's cheating. Arrangers, SMF's, MP3's, laptops (for music playback, not lyrics!), IT'S ALL THE SAME.

It's not cheating if you PLAY LH bass, but it is if you use an arranger or sequence.

It's not cheating if you PLAY the horn parts, but it is if you sequence them.

Rinse and repeat.

BUT.... Nowadays, the audience EXPECTS you to cheat. To the point where THEY think they can get on stage with a mike and YOUR laptop and do the show themselves! It is getting to the point where, even if you ARE playing 'live', they go 'Where's the backing tracks?'

As musicians, we need to display skills that they can't even PRETEND to do, and playing backing tracks, especially on a laptop, just plays into their hands. The more you PLAY, the more they realize you are NOT one of them. You ARE a 'musician', a 'keyboard player'. The minute you step away from the keyboard and everything doesn't grind to a halt, they (probably quite rightly) KNOW you are just karaoke. Admittedly, better than they can do it, but karaoke nonetheless.

Is this how you want to be seen?

I just feel it is far better to NEVER let them see the 'man behind the curtain'. As long as you stay firmly behind the keyboard, and visibly play as much as you can, especially ALL the solos, at least you will remain a 'keyboard player' in their eyes. But let it take over, and walk away, and they have EVERY right to assume you might have been faking the whole time. After all, it's what THEY would do...!

A lot of the mystery about music production is gone. Most people have simple loop manipulation apps on their computers, and know a LOT more about SMFs and MP3's than they used to. They understand that major acts on tour often fly in backing tracks, sometimes even lead vocals during dance numbers or throat problems. So how do we demonstrate our worth?

By doing something they CAN'T. Play... visibly, extravagantly, expressively. Don't EVER let them think it's NOT you...

And, if the venue can afford it, don't squeeze them for more money for you... get a sideman. Get two... Get a rhythm section. Turn off the machines and do it ALL 'live'. Do what you can. Or we ALL deserve to be replaced by karaoke singers. If 'cheating' IS all right, what right do we have to be scornful of karaoke? It is just the next logical step...

Doesn't apparently keep Valli up at night...

Diki....not so.. simple fact you play an arranger kb which in itself emits more then one instrument with only one person sitting there playing it & its lumped into all the above ....& cheating is thought of by the audience plain and simple the who's playing all that music hes by himself attitude will never cease to the audiences mind....you can surly make yourself believe it, but they will not no matter how you conscrew it.....the defensiveness old school thinking that this is wrong amazes me instead of embracing it....technology changes, music changes with it like anything else....if you want to mentally block it, try to say it ain't so, twist it around to suit you mental purist comfort zone or your friends' and audience, not let it sink in that your just controlling a form of midi file by playing a style anyway that won't change anything & guess what, its gonna get more high tech & more pseudo cheating will be on the rise with every new gear design, KB concoction and player combination to make music....

next time you look at the audience ...
try to read their minds......

"Hmmmmm....is That Guy up there Cheating?"

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-10-2007).]

Ever watch a symphony? They use laptops these days......

As I switched from arranger to straight piano on my 3K to fill a Moon River request, the requestor blurted out at the end...."but I wanted it with the band"

I took away all the stuff that hides me from the audience so they can watch my fingers move.....

It's good for the mind to memorize everything. I think this will help me in my later years..........

We are a blessed bunch that can play music....

zuki

We haven't heard from BIAB artists or Ipod artists yet?.....laptops are just one of the tools..there's so many more look in your catalogs. This old school train of thought will be a distant memory once we're gone & today's generation takes our shoes....we're the last of the pro cross-breeds old/new mix there's no stopping it.

God help us! Life is too fast paced already

zuki

Diki, a lot of what you are saying is correct, but a lot of what Donny is saying is also correct ("as soon as the audience hears more than one instrument....."). The difference, IMO, is that Donny is more honest with his audience. In your approach, you would do everything possible to keep the audience from suspecting that something "non-live" is going on. Walking away from the keyboard is a way of saying to the audience "okay, i'm using "backing tracks" but hey, I'm here to entertain you. Although I don't personally like "cabaret" type entertainment, I believe that there are two types of audiences; one that is just there to "have a good time" (be entertained), and one that comes out specifically to hear "live music". Neither audience would be happy if they ended up in the wrong venue.

Since there are valid points to be made on both sides of the "is it cheating?" debate, the only thing we can say with any certainty is that, it is probably cheating if your intent is to deceive (and this includes lip-syncing superstars).

The downside of technology (in music) as I see it, is that it puts a lot of no-talent wannabees and pretenders in a position of being able to compete with legitimate musicians for the entertainment dollar. Couple that with a general "dumbing down" of the audience (consider "America" accepting that Antonella Barba was one of the top 10 singers in America), and what you have is musical scene that can in no way compare to the prodigious periods of the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's.

Technology, in and of itself, is not inherently bad, but can certainly be misused to the detriment of the creative process and the mastering of the fundamentals.

Me personally, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear anything other than live music (in the pure sense of the word), but that's just me and in no way demeans the "entertainer" who will freely and openly use any means necessary to entertain his audience (including bantering with the audience). Sure, it's entertainment, sometimes very good entertainment, but "it ain't music" (or music is not the primary focus).

Lastly, let's not be too adamant about pushing our point-of-view. There is usually an opposing point-of-view that is just as valid as yours. Remember, "EVERY GENERAL TRUTH IS A SPECIFIC LIE, INCLUDING THIS ONE" .

chas

The funny thing is I agree with every one of these posts. I agree with the point and counterpoint.

Chas...as usual, an outstanding analysis of a multi-element issue. And, Diki, I always admire your commitment to what you believe and the general way you approach this business.

Taike is my friend and has earned more respect than was shown here in this thread.

You three are the ones here most like me in terms of attitude, approach to the business, etc., and I always enjoy our exchanges.

And, for my friends who think that not wanting to hear 50 year old Doo Wop or Frankie Vali is an indication of being old;
that's amaising. I guess I'll have to sit back, turn on some Corine Bailey Ray and John Mayer to think about that one.

Technology is here, it's great, but should not be used as a crutch to hide lack of ability. There is more of a reason for the Donny's and Fran's of the world to use whatever they want, because they are showmen. I'm not. I'm also not an elitest, and don't look down at COMPETENT players who use whatever they want to produce the results required. Chas is right. 1/2 the audience really just wants to be entertained and doesn't care what is used to produce the results. My audience is the other half. They know the music...listen to the changes...know the writers. They are not a superior audience, but they're my audience.

Man, I appreciate them. And, believe it or not, I appreciate posters on both sides of this recurring issue.

Do whatever works for you. Don't be defensive when someone else does it differently.

And, Donny and Fran...LEARN SOME NEW MATERIAL! (just kidding, guys).

R.

Look at how scornful we get at those amongst us (or shown on YouTube) that even fake playing the keyboard... And yet, if you step away from the keyboard, you are inviting your audience to think that YOU are one of those!

My backing tracks (no audio, just SMFs or arranger) get stripped down to the absolute minimum that I can get away with for each song. I try to stay as lively as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs! Probably at least half of them are just drums alone (I DO have a guitarist/singer), most of the rest are just bass and drums, only a few are much more than that. I try to do as much of the SMF production as I can (I have a MIDI drum kit and use drummers to provide unique drumtracks when I can) or if I use a web SMF, it is tweaked and changed as much as possible. I add a LOT of 'ghost' notes, ruffs, drags, lots of little drum things to change the mechanical nature of most web MIDI's. Basically, I work on it until it sounds 'live'.

But the main thing is to remain VERY busy (both hands!) so they don't see you relying on the track much. If you 'walk away' too often, you invite them to believe it is ALL backing tracks. This is just my opinion, yada, yada yada, but it seems logical, to me, anyway

Musicians, playing music. THAT is what my audience wants to hear. If they want a pre-canned show, they go to Disney!

Spin, Spin, Spin, it all you want ........it boils down to much of what has been discussed previously. Multi-talent is just what it means....you can just Sing, Play, DJ, or a combination of many different things at once....heck sometimes even though I can play live KB all night I'll just get up play Timbales or Conga or even shake just a Maraca Egg while I sing to mix it up...when needed for the venue...or maybe go out into the dance floor and put a Chicken Hat on an audience member while the Chix Song is playing too...then run back on stage to play the next song on the arranger....
I do it all, always will, & have fun doing it too FOR EVERYONE out there young & Old !



------------------
________________________

Donny

� Choose a job you Love, and you will Never have to Work a day in your life! �
________________________
And HUG Someone tight Everyday....
You'll Feel better afterwards

So who was it that said, "you can't be just a little bit pregnant"?

I think Donny just hit on the real issue. If I EVER found myself out in the audience putting a chicken hat on someone, the embarrasment level would be so high that the origin of the background sound (or whether I was naked or not) wouldn't matter. This kind of act would empty out EVERY venue I play. Actually, the act would be manually ejected. It's just the difference, as Chas has pointed out, between audiences and expectations. In the kind of situation Donny describes, anything that works is fine. For an awards dinner for the president of a state university who happens to be a jazz buff/historian, or the local Jazz Arts Foundation...no way. The chicken hat may work at an assisted living facility or nursing home...I don't play those places, at least not for money (that's a whole new issue...not for here).

Donny has found his nitch and I've found mine. The approach is drastically different, but we have both "survived and prospered". The difference is not so much laptops, sequences...whatever, but venue and style. I use what's appropriate for me and he does, too. He does whatever it takes to succeed. I have things I simply won't do...songs I won't play...venues I won't work. We've both been doing it for a lot of years. We've raised families and enjoyed or lives.

And, that's what's important.

Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 07-10-2007).]

There is no doubt Donny's show works... He remains one of our busiest performers. More strength to him.

But.... I gotta side with Russ on this one. I was born a keyboard player, and I want to die one, not a chicken impersonator...! (I weave the Chicken song into 'Jambalaya' but as a quick quote, not Howard the Duck!)

And not that there is ANYTHING wrong with it... just not my cup of tea. My audience, so far (thank God!) manages to remain entertained without props and slapschtick.

Maybe it's because we DO play as much as possible. Maybe it's because we DON'T dress up as chickens! Who knows? As long as it works... it's WAY too hot in Florida for costumes!

Russ & Diki sorry dont kid yourself in 40+ years I've played every kind of venue from Madison Square Garden doo wop shows, on tours, Cruise Ship tours to High-school all city Big Band concerts in Carnegie hall playing Sax as a kid ( yes I do play a few other things too.. , to high end Weddings, Corporate events, tiny classy supper clubs for Governors, Congressman,Politicians etc ...besides nursing homes and animal clubs & drunken freak titty bars, Beach Seaside, Picnic & Pool venues, church dances, Ballroom Dancing events & competitions....very versatile I am....making my clients very happy NO MATTER what they require I always do, even if it requires a sometimes happy dance involving Chickenhat ONLy when the need arises, Alley cats, and sexy Macarena girls in a long conga line, having fun with little kids too,......anyone who wants to sit in a corner of some club and just play like the wallpaper that's OK by me I've done it many times & it bores me to death ......but on the other hand I give it 500% every performance every time in anyway I need to.
Embarrassed ...? Rather happy to be alive and supporting my family as Pro Musician & Entertainer.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-10-2007).]

I understand where you are coming from, Donny. Like you, I've covered a huge range of different musical gigs and situations (and have had my share of embarrassing band costumes!), but please don't assume that just because we are NOT doing the full MC entertainer route, that we are sitting there like wallpaper, either!

It's just as easy to make false assumptions about others' gigs that you haven't seen, as it is for others to misunderstand yours...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-10-2007).]

Donny, knock yourself out, man. Just don't expect a lot of respect in certain circles.

That probably doesn't matter to you, and that's good!

R.

If i'm a talented, established, architect and someone asked me to design an outhouse, I ain't doing it. If my family's going hungry, they're just going to have to suck it up.

chas

Looks like you ruffled some feathers on this comment

zuki

I wouldn't wanna exist in a boring world when life is too short......if I can create a tear in someones eye or a smile on a cancer victims face I will do it as well as make a veteran stand and cheer that's what I do my friends!!....I'm done with replies on this topic....too exhausting to keep the repetitiveness going.....gotta rest up for another busy week.....but godspeed to y'all in your musical journeys.

PS if anyone is interested:
http://www.chickenhats.com/Chickenhats.htm



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-10-2007).]

Funny, because you were the topic starter...

The King has the final word...

But then wouldn't that make you the King, Nick? Oh wait, now it's me...I mean....What the...????

King chas (for the moment)

Donny, what do you expect when you answer your own question in your opening post. So, for YOU, it ended right there.

chas

LOL

Let's show a little respect, folks...Donny's a real Pro...just ask him!

R.

Personally, I admire Donny's attitude and open minded approach, and I wish I had more of it myself.

It's nice to see someone so enthusiastic about his music, and it's also nice to see someone brave enough to think outside the box.

I, for one, would definitely go to see one of his performances.

Way to go, Donny...you have the testicular fortitude and confidence to be able to do what you love whilst earning a living.

Ian the Impressed



------------------
Bring back the Chord Sequencer!

Is making a recording cheating?
(you don't have to answer that!)
What I mean is: making a recording is often playing it many times and edit it untill it is right ("assembling") - in this digital era even notes are changed afterwards, like recording a midi-file and correcting notes and correct the timing. Singers are even corrected with plug-ins (auto-tune), etc.
So what IS cheating anyway.
When I play "The Love Boat" on my PSR3K, I play the melody, the chords and I programmed the counter-melodies (Multipads) plus I have to hit the multipadbuttons in time. But I did not make the accompaniment and the intro and outro - so am I a cheat?
I don't think so, but I do show that I am NOT playing during the intro and outro.
drdalet.

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 07-11-2007).]

Why not mute the lead parts during the intro and still keep playing?

And all I believe 'cheating' is, is giving your audience less that YOUR best. By whatever means necessary...

But using backing parts that you COULD have played, IMO, that's cheating your audience. Just play as much as you can, as well as you can, and your audience will recognize it every time...

As to recording 'cheating'... Well, unless you state specifically that you recorded 'live' in one take, no-one expects that.

Were Les Paul and Mary Ford 'cheating'? Was Sgt. Pepper's 'cheating'? Was Glen Gould's first Goldberg Variations 'cheating'? (THAT one is still being debated!)

I kind of feel for this issue a bit, though, because my duo sells a CD we recorded 'live' at our house gig, but because of the nature of arrangers and SMF's, I was able to record us live on several different days to an ADAT. This allowed me to fly the tracks into the computer, and line them up virtually sample accurate, because the tempos were the same each time!

So I was able to take the rhythm guitar parts from different days, and pan them out to the corners, and have double tracked rhythm guitar (when the song sounded good with it), and have a choice of different solos, from myself and my guitarist, to choose from, and pick the best one for each song, and sometimes a little doubled harmony.

Now, does this still qualify as a 'live' recording? Because every note WAS recorded live, in one go, but then assembled from the live recordings afterwards...

No easy answers, I guess, but we don't bill it as a 'live album, but we DO say it was recorded at the house gig...

But it was a neat way to do the job, and I think we're doing the next one the same way.

Diki
Do you pay royalties on the songs you record and sell? Do you buy your midi files from the net?
I know how you feel about stealing (sampling). So with such strong opinions I would expect you to be above reproach in every aspect of your musical ethics.

Mike,

Diki did state that he paid his dues. Excerpt from The Sampling (copyed) Bar:

Diki quotes:

"However, my duo DOES have a CD for sale of us playing live, we sell it on the gig. Each and every tune on that CD is cleared with the copyright holders, and we pay a fee to the rights societies for the use of those tunes...."

Taike

Look folks � CHEATING is the way of the modern world. It�s called using technology to provide a marketable product which the public will accept at a cost considerably less than �the traditional thing�. For example:

- BILL CLINTON and our buddy GEORGE BUSH: Presidential speeches� they use an electronic prompter (laptop!) to read a speech someone else was paid to write ------- CHEATERS!

- Nightly News �Entertainers� ---- use teleprompters to read news stories someone else wrote ---- CHEATERS!

- Weather forecasters� stand in front of computerized screens � everything is automated�stuff they used to draw by hand on a plexiglass screen� now computerized --------- CHEATERS!

- Airline pilots: flying on autopilot 96% of the route�what used to be a brain drain is now 4 minutes on the controls to take off and 4 minutes to land ------ CHEATERS!

- Commercial jingle writers and advertising people: Use banks of prerecorded snippits to build a commercial. What used to take a couple hours and a studio band now takes 15 minutes and some pre-recorded loops ----------- CHEATERS!

- Photographers: Amateurs can buy a camera now that takes superb pictures equal to the ones the big daddies take with their $10K rigs. The paparazzi crowd has grown from a few �old pro�s� to armies of people using automated cameras to sell the big photos to Enquirer --- CHEATERS!

Guess what? The only ones complaining about the above are the ones who are upset because their (traditional) jobs may be replaced by the use of automation.

In just about any line of work these days, automation is being employed to simplify the job and produce consistently more reliable output products. I�m sure there are a couple hundred old fart pilots out there who all will say �that isn�t the way we flew airplanes�. Guess what? They are NOT flying commercially anymore either. So anyone who doesn�t accept the benefits of automation can complain all they want, but they better stand aside while the guys who use technology move out front.

I played a gig a year ago (and no � it wasn�t the ONLY gig I got all year HA HA). I noticed there were 2 fortunetellers there. There were big lines at both tables with hundreds of people waiting for their turn to have their palms read. When the gig ended, I sat down at one of the ladies� tables. I said �how long have you been telling fortunes?� and she responded�. �about 2 hours now�. I said �You mean you�ve never done this before?� and she said �My mom is the other fortune teller and she told me stuff to say on the way over here�. Right then, a man in his 40�s in a pathetically revealing SpiderMan costume came running by with a dozen kids chasing him with plastic swords. So you see, what people want is entertainment. As unfortunate as that is to the purists, that�s all most of them want.

The big benefit of arrangers is the fact that a guy using an arranger and midi files can provide decent �full band� entertainment at a cost comparable to a single musician without the additional cost of the backup musicians. Unfortunately, the public has grown to expect more from every venue for the same price (or less) than they used to pay. And I can tell you that (unless the guy at the controls is an idiot) all but the purists in the crowd are very very happy with the sounds coming out of the arranger keyboards whether they are �played live� or using midi�s. Otherwise, why would Karaoke bars be packed every night?

My last point: When we all get old and have pacemakers put into our chests so we can wheeze a few more years out of our decrepit frames, won�t we be �CHEATERS� at that too? I mean�. If we were meant to have electronic �beat boxes� in our bodies, we�d have been borne with a bunch of access hatches. So when the doc says �I can give you a few more years with a pacemaker��. Who among us is going to say �no thanks � it�s the real thing or nothing for me�? I profess that the big decision for us (regarding our pacemakers) will NOT be whether what we are doing is CHEATING � but whether our pacemaker should be �Yamaha or Roland�?

R/I


[This message has been edited by Rejected Idol (edited 07-13-2007).]

aah..a refreshing new voice..
an intelligent analysis. welcome.

------------------
Miami Mo

So, in other words: "I can't play worth a lick but hubby's sick and doesn't want to lose the gig (money). He told me to just shove in a midi file and pretend to play."

At least you'll have no reason to complain should you ever lose your job to this kind of performer(?).

JMHO
Taike

Taike � that sounds like a pretty stupid and very irresponsible hubby to me. To send his wife in w/MIDI files to fake playing, he must not care much about the gig and probably shouldn�t have gotten it in the first place if that�s his level of professionalism. Unless I read it wrong, this thread was not about �faking playing�, it was about using MIDI files or portions of them along w/styles on gigs. The point of my comments is that embracing technology in entertainment should be no different than using technology to provide a polished product in any other line of work.

The public wants to be entertained when they are socializing. Arranger players can fill this void if they are good at using the tools (including midi files when necessary to enhance their sound). It happens all the time and will continue to happen. And whether you want to agree or not, in the final analysis, (as sad as it is) we are all held in the same light as the Spidermen and the Fortunetellers. That is, call it 'performing' or call it 'entertaining', but we are there to satisfy the crowd, 99% of which can only relate to what they hear. If they like what they hear and you are professional, you are great. If not, you're not.

R/I


[This message has been edited by Rejected Idol (edited 07-13-2007).]

Miami Mo - Thanks Man! I don't comment on here much, but this was a lively topic so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

Now, if I only knew what they paid the Fortuneteller ladies and that Spiderman...

R/I

Very Good!
Perhaps one of the more illustrative examples.

If that wife is very entertaining and is faking playing by using midi files, is that OK.
I guess from the wife and husband�s perspective because she is getting the job done.
Just imagine in the future multiply that by the nth power where instead of arranger playing and persons actually playing an instrument, the way gigs would be done is by sitting or standing behind a computer manipulating tracks and sounds to �entertain� the audience. And what if that new trend causes you to either put up your arranger or musical instrument and join the computer manipulation crowd (playing less music) or don�t play at all. At what point do you draw the line?

I think as part of the nature of humans ,we only want to be fair and moral when we are getting the short end of the stick. Or when the shoe is on the other foot. We saw this in the sampling issue.

And what is wrong with being Mr. DJ? Just as long as you please the crowd.

BTW, one of the things we should distinguish is the difference between the audience coming for live �entertainment� or live �music�.

Exactly!

Taike

If cheating is expected then the question should be if midi files or BIAB is professional?

Or, getting back to the entertainer vrs. musicianship question.

I'm sure there is a necessary blending among most here, but I refuse to become an A.O.(appliance operator) by playing records, or pushing buttons on a workstation. To me, the black & white keys are more important.

Less is more. I'll cater to the more discriminating audience. A keyboard, an amp. and a mic. Play "off the cuff".

Sorry, I'm not going to play it like so and so played it and I don't do Celibration or YMCA.

OK Guys. One more slant. Webster�s defines them as:

Entertaining: to divert or amuse

Performing: demonstrating a skill in fulfillment of a requirement

Now, we all know what most ads in the paper say. They say �nightly entertainment� or �live entertainment�. That sounds like �diverting or amusing� to me. I have rarely seen an ad say �performance by skilled conservatory graduate�.

In the same light, if the ads said �Tonight: Elvis Impersonator who occasionally goes into the audience wearing a chicken hat� or �Technically proficient conservatory grad�, who do you think would get the bigger crowd?

Turn on Jerry Springer (vice PBS) and you have the answer.

R/I

Mike, the headless chicken wants its chicken hat back!
http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/headless_chicken/

Tell you what Taeke.... you conservatory grads continue doing your things and the rest of us entertainers with our chicken hats and Jimmy Buffet tunes will keep doing our thing.... And we'll see you at the bank.

R/I

Who the hell cares anyway ? Not me .. I do what makes ME feel comfortable, but for those times when I play out, always with the goal first and foremost that I entertain my audience.

Musical snobbery on an arranger forum of all places.. Geez.. I find that to be pretty much an oxymoron in and of itself.

I'm kinda proud that I have some "musician skills". I've worked on them to the best of my ability, pretty much to the point that, even if I might be a few notches below the top echelon, I wouldn't be embarrassed or afraid to sit in with pretty much any band on the planet.


That said, I also realize how egotistical musicians can be, me included, and I'm really trying to move just a little bit away from that, because in reality, the majority of most audiences couldn't care less, as long as we can bring something that they want to see and hear.

Personally, I very much enjoy listening to quite complex musical structures, but the majority of the folks in both my family and general circle of life do not. That's just the way it is.

Chick Corea put it in perfect perspective for me in an interview a while back. For those who may not know Chick is a phenonenal keyboard player, who writes and plays some very complex music. One night he was interviewed at a Paul Simon concert. He was absolutely gushing over Paul's work. The interviewer seemed a bit surprised and suggested that it had appeared to him that what Paul had played in his sets amounted to very simple music, but Chick stated that he himself has nowhere near the ability Paul has to write lyrics and string harmonies together. He seemed to be pretty much in awe.

I do what I do depending on the audience, and when I do occasionally get a little egotistical and feel the need to "mark my territory" ( yep it happens ), I turn off all the "junk" and let fly with some ripping solo stuff. At the same time, I could wear the chicken hat if I felt the need to...

Oh yes.. I DO bring my laptop.. always. Reason being is it's chock full of VSTi's and Sample sets, and there isn't an arranger on the planet that can make some of the lovely noises that my laptop makes.

After a couple things that nearly kicked the life out of me ( literally), I think I've begun to see what is really important in life ( at least for myself and my family anyway ) which also helps a little to at least partially let me get "over myself" , and really, I think that helps a bit to make me a happier person in general. On the other hand, each day that I wake up, mostly just because I'm still here, makes me pretty happy.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 07-14-2007).]

Amen to that AJ!!!!!

what is ironic is that I agree that anything goes if it goes,

yet I am possibly one of the least "cheating" arranger players on this site. I never use smf, never use sequencer, use only bass/drum most of the time, and the
other time divided between using an occasional bigband
horn riff or bossa guitar strum for spice, or using just the
drum and playing lh split bass, or using no arranger and
just playing full kb. I never use intros or performance pads, just outros, fills, fades..and only use 15-20 sounds.
and the biggest "cheating" I do is using the transposer a lot--which makes no difference in what things sound like.

but that's just how I like to do it. I can do what i like
because I'm semi-retired and don't gig for a living, just
for enjoyment and supplementary income. If I had to make a living at it, a lot more "cheating" would be required--no more playing standards/jazz/latin/blues/
exclusively but would have to do top 40, 70's/80's etc..
and would have to use smf, seq, full arrangements, etc.

quality is not what most people are into, or dj's would not be considered "artists"..I'm grateful for the handful left
who appreciate quality, and for those others who may
consider me "entertaining" because i play sax, sing, and
occasionally come up with a droll one-liner off the cuff.

if people accept canned music as "entertainment" they
prefer to real musical creativity, that's just the way it is,
and I find nothing wrong with those who can provide that
in an entertaining way..that's a craft that deserves respect
too, and if a dj can "scratch" a little better than the next
guy, or has a better feel for when to play what selection
than the next guy, that's a craft too..piddling as it is.

the technology cannot be ignored. but what puzzles is this, as my friend recording engineer Vince Traina (Ex-
Atlantic Records)used to ask: Mo, rcording technology keeps getter better and better, why is it that as it improves the quality of the music keeps declining in inverse ratio? (btw he said this in 1991)