I agree with you wholeheartedly, Zuki...arranger playing is indeed "live" playing.

Nice to hear you're doing so well with your solo act.

Ian

What would you rather listen to Dinki...a good exciting arranger player or a bunch of mediocre musicians banging away...you see its all to do with how you use your instrument! a point you seem to have over looked!...I add live realism to my arranger playing and make it exciting to the listener by adding dynamics with both hands, the arranger will follow as would a good tight band, I can inprovise over whatever to arranger is doing and bring realism into the performance.

I regularly work with two vocalists and they have chosen to work with an arranger player rather than a full live band because its much cleaner, much more controllable, and we create a great sound, the arranger allows us to cover a wide spectrum of music
and we play every live, no pre recorded tracks...although you are under the impression that a style running over the same chord endlessly (which as you know is what arrangers do if you take your hand away) is a backing track? I'm afraid my two singers will disagree with you there !!! it may be automatic backing but I need to be there to input the chord data in real time using my vast musical knowledge to create the impression that more than one musician is in the band...that my friend is still LIVE music.

Rgds

NJ

Pasadoble....nice pics on your website....what is that KB on the top of the rack (Roland)? BTW can you post a few songs for us would love to hear those vocalists with you.

thanx

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Diki said: "Arrangers and SMFs are a VERY poor substitute for a good real band, even from the performer's view, unless you HAVEN'T played live lately. Don't forget what 'live' really means…"
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Diki, aren’t you the same guy who is always asking for the return of the ARPEGIATOR? What’s that say? You would actually play a solo while the ‘board was belting out some mechanical chord sequence?

Regarding live playing - we all agree. I doubt there is anyone on this board who would scoff at the opportunity to play with a (good) live 5-6 piece band to “rock the joint”. The REALITY of it is, that nearly everything these days is singles or duos. If you were the owner of a club and you had a choice between a 5 piece band at (let’s be minimally fair to them!) $600.00 or a single guy with talent who uses an arranger that sounds (very much) like a 5-piece band (for, let’s say $200), what would you choose? And before you say "The 5-piece live band would draw a bigger crowd", remember that if they did produce bigger crowds they'd be commanding a lot more than $600. The sheer number of weddings using DJs is clear evidence of the transition in entertainment.


I’ve worked with dozens of bands. And few of them (except for the touring groups) are tight because they don’t rehearse that often (they REFUSE TO because there aren’t enough gigs paying at least $600!). On the other hand, a talented guy (and I profess that most people using arrangers ARE musically inclined) can woodshed his tunes and we don't have to worry about guys not showing for rehearsals or performances. He (and I) invest our valuable time woodshedding because we have been there and experienced the bass man showing late or the drummer wrecking his car or the guitar picker being arrested for hitting his wife or selling cocaine, or the sax man quitting because he’s getting a divorce. And I say woodshedding because only a fool would choose to expose himself to the pressure of the crowd and management if he had no ability to actually “play” the keyboard.

There is a level of professionalism and predictability with an arranger. You can always count on the sound (albeit mechanical in some ways) being there. But much of the mechanical aspect can be overcome by inflecting our own "live touch" into the music.

Last time I checked, this was the “GENERAL ARRANGER KEYBOARD FORUM”. We ARE arranger enthusiasts. And the majority of us, I’m sure, will remain very enthusiastic about them.

R/I

Thanks Ian,

Yes, doing fantastic. I'm so geeked I'm bringing my board in the house to practice, after playing 3 gigs today. Don't need to stand behind some guitarist.

zuki

Actually, as my post indicated, I would rather listen to a live band of exciting players. If you are going to compare yourself to lesser players, then of course you have the edge. But all things being equal (something you don't appear to want to compare yourself to), you might as well compare yourself to a mediocre arranger player... That would be the equivalent.

It is such a shame that so few of you have any positive things to say about the bands you've played in (or listened to). Negative posts completely outweigh the positive. Are they REALLY so bad? Admittedly, I live in a vacation resort area now, with many good bands making a good living, but I've also lived in Memphis (loads of great musicians) and New Orleans (don't get me started on how good that was!) and NYC, amongst other towns, and there was never a shortage of good musicians anywhere... or gigs.

Once you HAVE played with bands that contain musicians of that high caliber, well, it's certainly hard to look at your arranger, and call it anything other than a poor substitute for the 'real thing'. It certainly is an easy way to make music, and of course, it can make a small combo or solo sound really full, without having to do a lot of sequencing. But please don't compare yourself to mediocre musicians just to justify it. It doesn't need justification. It is what it is...

Compare it to a band full of musicians at LEAST as good as you if you want a TRUE comparison...
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BTW, the reason I want the return of the Chord Sequencer (it is NOT an arpeggiator ) is so that songs that have a repeating chord structure (probably most of them!) don't need the chord input after the first time through. THEN, I can use both hands to the fullest rather than the tyranny of HAVING to play the chords constantly. Or play my trombone, or a REAL bassline, or add extra voicings outside the arranger chords, or use the bender for expressive solos, or a million other things you can't do while your left hand is tied down...

Don't knock it until you've tried it. It is, after all, a totally arranger only feature, not some ported over half-baked workstation feature. As arranger players, we should try to support ideas that further arranger play (IMO) rather than get too gaga over the latest workstation port... The CS totally blurs the line between SMF play and arranger play. ALL the advantages of arranger play (interactivity, spontaneity, make up your own structure on the fly) with the advantages of SMFs (independence of parts you play to the backing).

Few people that ever learned to use one ever want to do without it again... It's kind of like multi-pads on a Yamaha (but different!). Once you get used to them, you don't want to lose the feature...

I have to agree with Diki on this one.

If you were just to consider the musical aspects, I Even think that if you were to compare a good arranger player to a good band, from a performer’s perspective playing in a band is much more satisfying. But that assumes that you have played with a good band and you are a good arranger player.


Now there are reasons that we use to justify using an arranger or midi file (I think a good electronic musician can get a midi file sounding as live as an arranger) instead of a band. Financially one solo player could charge less than a 5 or 6 member band. With a solo player, you don’t have to worry about the hassle of coordinating rehearsals and dealing with personality peculiarities of band members.

But having said all that, just the musical experience and interaction of playing on stage with a “GOOD” band has advantages over playing solo. We play solo because of economic and personality differences.

I think that a good arranger or workstation act is live music if they can be spontaneous.

I would say however, that when we try to mimic another instrument on our keyboards (whether arranger or workstation), we are cheating. That is not to say that we are not employing skills. It does take skills to be able to take a sax sound and make it sound like or as close to the real thing. But that is just it. If we are trying to sound like the real thing, then that looks like we are trying to cut corners. Why don’t we get a sax player to play that part? We all know the reason why. It is just not economical or feasible to do so in today’s business world. Instead, we substitute a real sax player with a keyboard sound that sounds like a sax. And we try to make it sound as much as we can like a live sax player (Cheat). We all do that me included.

I am one to admit that in a sense it is cheating, however, I would also say that there is a skill that goes along with making it happen. In order for the sax to sound real you have to know about the sax and what is possible and not possible on a sax and you have to know how to manipulate your keyboard to make it sound real.

Diki...I think your problem of not really accepting arrangers as a legitimate performing tool comes from a deep seated doubt about your own personal musical abilities! you've convinced yourself that if you play an arranger keyboard your not as good as a musician performing in a live
band.
I on the other hand recognise that arrangers have a place in the
performers arsenal and I happy to use one with absolutely no qualms, criticism of
them and hang-ups about using them. I am a highly confident musician and can
play anything in any situation be it in a live band or on an arranger...and
may I say I also mix both together too where I perform in a duo where I mute
all the parts except the drums and the bass is played by a live bass
player, I handle all the keyboard and we both sing...I have to ask you because I find you and your points of
view on arrangers fascinating...when do you consider the use of an arranger
keyboard in a live situation ''Not Cheating'' ??? If I add a guitar or horn part does it immediately become cheating ??

You see being a pro musician requires you to adapt to changing trends and you personally have got to lose that 'oh my god I'm ( and most of the players on this forum) using an auto-accompaniment keyboard I (they) must be inferior to someone playing keyboard in a live band' or unable to carry themselves in a live band' attitude.

If your comfortable with yourself as a musician and you know you have the
abilities for playing piano, keyboard and organ to a high standard be it
live or arranger, I can assure you, you will not be as critical of arrangers
and their use as is obvious from viewing
your acidic and confused ratings....you harp on about the joy of working with other musicians...I personally feel that with arrangers its man and machine working in perfect harmony together...yes it can be done...if you have the prior musical ability to achieve it...have you got it Diki...have 'YOU' got it!


[This message has been edited by pasadoble (edited 07-21-2007).]

Referring back to the original topic subject:
If you use MIDI files that you did not personally create, if you play along with internal styles (or user styles that have been converted from other arrangers), if you play mp3 files or other audio files that you did not personally create, then yes you are cheating. You are letting the audience assume that you yourself are creating right in front of their eyes and ears everything they are listening to and that is lying. No two ways about it.

On the other hand, you can take the position of 'what the audience doesn't know won't hurt them', right? The audience wants to be entertained. And if the venue can't pay or is to cheap to pay for an actual group of live musicians or if the room is too small for anything but a single, then having the option of some form of live entertainment like someone playing an arranger keyboard or a DJ is better than nothing.

What does the arranger player get out of the situation (other than a little spending cash in order to buy the next latest greatest end-all instrument every couple of months or so )? He/she gets the opportunity to perform live in front of an audience which under other circumstances may not be available to him/her. And as long as he/she is not bothered by the fact that the audience is being deceived into thinking that the person standing behind the keyboard is an incredible musician, even though in reality the incredible musician(s) is the person who actually created all or at least the vast majority of what the audience is hearing, then everybody's happy.

I don't mean to upset anyone here, but this is the dirty truth. On the other hand, who cares? I always prefer to play with other musicians but there are situations that call for a lone musician and it is great to be able to go into a single act gig as something other than an acoustic guitar/vocal act doing James Taylor tunes (not that there is anything wrong with that mind you) or heaven forbid, a DJ . And many of the members of this forum, while maybe not really playing all or most of the music coming from their equipment, are fine performers and entertainers and like I said, all an audience wants is to be entertained. So more power to the arranger players; enjoy what you do and enjoy how you do it.

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 07-21-2007).]

My life behind the keyboards before arrangers was mostly as lead, rhythm and bass player for a trio of drums, sax (later guitar) and me. Having to play foot or left hand bass, song chords and occassional leads is not much different than what I do now, but the arranger or SMF does most of the work, leaving me more time for playing other/more things.

How many times has the style left me screaming for a live drummer and bass player - too numerous to mention. But I continue to plug away and dream of having six other capable musicians on stage to let me ROCK . But it's not gonna happen, soon or ever.

Using an arranger or SMF gives me an opportunity to be on stage - plain and simple.