Can you believe that? A $3000 workstation and not a single digital output? How can you make the best of all that beautifull sound if you have to send it out via analog noisy cables to your digital studio?
This is what gets me with this manufactures. I bet you it will be on the next one they put out.. by then we would of already forked out 3 grand.
I dont know, I like the sounds and all, but I just can understand the mentality of this engineers..

best,

Don't you know the game? They string you along by leaving a few things out everytime they intoduce a new unit. Leaves you wanting for more? If they put "IT ALL" in there they couldn't bait you on the next one! Its been going on for years. Remember.. the "Newest" is NOT always the best!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-10-2002).]

Yeah youre right.. It gets me angry because I can definitely hear the power and quality of the sounds. ITs really a shame if you have to go analog out.. IT really maddens me big time. I cant understand why we have to fork out $3000 grand and have all this beautiful sound get deminished in quality as you go analog. I know people know that digital is the way to go, I just dont understand it, why not add a cheap Digital output to the keyboad, how much would it have costed? OR even yet, why not make it an option at least?
Can someone here with connections with Yamaha, please call them and tell them to explain it to us?
Please? Why their flagship keyboard in the Year 2002-2003 has no digital output? Dont they know that people are recording into digital studios? or is it just me? Dont know..I think I may just stay with my trusty Korg I30 and Trinity. At least in my trinity I have a digital output...I will wait till the prices go down, or at least till they make it an option..

best,

Please don't blame this on engineers. Engineers by nature want to include every feature they can dream of including a bunch that no one asked for or want.

Now if you said "marketing", I'd be 100% with you.

-David (an engineer, of course)

it did confuse me why they only mention the usb connection for data transfer to the internal hard disk. Since the 7000 has digital audio in and out through the usb as well as two independant midi in/out drivers through usb, I was expecting the tyros to be similar.

Yeah, youre right... I admit it. Sorry to any engineers out there. I apologize...
I agree 100% its marketing...They are the ones who screw us big time! I just hope we can get something from yamaha about this. I think no one has even dared to ask it..Why?

Well guys, I called Yamaha Tech support yesterday, and I can confirm that the Tyros will not have a digital output.
At first the Tech guy said it did. Then, I asked him if he was completely sure, he said, wait let me check again. Then after like 3 minutes waiting, He said, you know, I could have sworn it did have Digital output.
Man, I sure was dissapointed at these news.
Here we are in the 21st century where practically everyone is going digital, and yet, yamahas top of the line Arranger, will not have any sort of digital output.
Forget it..I will just wait for the next one.
One thing the Tech guys did say, is that if enough people call them, and say that they want a digital output, its possible Yamaha can do something...
I dont know about this, but it may be possible... Either way guys, if youre not into recording, or just plan to use the Tyros on stage or on gigs, well it will be an awsome piece of gear.
In my case, I only do home recordings and compositions, so to me, I want digital output. I can not tolerate sound degradation from a $3000 dollar equipment...
Just my opinion...

Naturally, a digital out would be nice (and probably increase the price, if only a bit). But chances are that Yamaha would use a low-end A/D converter, and the loss of quality from that converter would probably negate the benefit of having a digital out in the first place. Just as a side point, the line outs in my 2000 are dead quiet. Go out and get some high-quality cables (very important), and a decent A/D converter (such as M-Audio Duo, etc., many out there already), and you should have no problem getting great recordings from the Tyros. The difference in noise level would almost certainly be negligible. The lack of digital out really shouldn't be a deal-breaker. Just my two cents.

[This message has been edited by MarcK (edited 09-11-2002).]

Thanks for your opinion, you are partly right though. The difference between digital and analog, is night and day.. It really is, depending on the market you serve..
I have an Korg I30 which has analog out only, best cables, etc.. Going into my ROland VS1680 , I did a comparison, between this and going digital out of the Trinity, of course the Trinitys sound is of much higher quality then that of the Korg i30, but The difference is very clear.
You see, its not so much the fact Digital or analog, its not that really, im perfectly happy going out analog with my i30, its that Yamaha, wants us to fork out 3k and they dont even bother to put a simple Digi out on their flagship keyboard....
It may not matter to many, since they may not be into recording and all, and the regular consumer may never know the difference, but to use musician, believe me, specially recording musician, we dont settle for nothing but the best.
Thats why I may wait for the next one...
Dont know, I will have to see...

best,

It's possible that the analog outs on the i30 happen to be on the noisy side. Certainly a keyboard can be built to have virtually silent line outs. High quality components should not produce noticeable noise. Inherently, there's no difference in quality between an analog out and a digital out. The only practical difference is that the analog signal is SUSCEPTIBLE to interference/noise. Of course in practice the analog outs in a keyboard aren't necessarily going to be of the highest quality (though Yamaha's seem to be quite good in this respect), but then again the A/D converters may not be either....okay I suppose I shouldn't repeat myself....

Does a Strativarius have a digital out? If not, they really screwed up. How could they expect someone to go into the studio with one and capture the true violin sounds with an antiquated fiddle that has no digital out? I'm keeping my $3 million dollars - at least until the next version comes out!

Beakybird

Sorry, MarcK, I don't understand your point about a low end A/D converter at all, and loss of quality from it?

The whole point of digital out is that there is no analogue stage whatsoever until you actually play the music through some loudspeakers. This will either be through the D/A in your soundcard, or more likely the D/A in your audio CD player, after you have made a CD, and many audio CD players have higher quality converters generally speaking than most soundcards (excepting some high end soundcards).

There is no A/D involved at all in the keyboard - that is the whole point of digital out - not having to convert to analogue and then back to digital again and then back to analogue again, with all the potential additive degradation that involves.

IMO,
Millions of records were made without digital that sound perfectly great. I would not dispute that digital is cleaner, however the average listener would not notice the difference at all. One has to ask themselves, who are they recording for, the average listener or a recording expert to judge. To me it is not night and day. It's more like late evening to night.

I think sometimes now with all this new and improved technology, we get way overly invloved in tweeking and perfection. Somewhere in all that, I think the music gets lost and the pure joy of making it and putting out a very acceptable cut.
jam on,
Terry

well if the average listener can't hear the difference he can save himself an awful lot of money both on keyboards and playback equipment
Once you have experienced all digital chains you certainly would not want to go back to analogue connections.

I think it doesn't matter whether you can convert a to d and vice versa, or get a great converter that'll do the job...

The point is that the high end arranger from one company MUST have what's a MUST in 21st century. It is not up to them to decide whether we need it or not. If they ask that much $$$ for it then they have to include a mandatory technology in their top product. You can get their top workstation (Motif 88) for less than $2000 and it has all this: Expandable via three slots for Modular Synthesis Plug-in boards, one slot for mLAN8E or AIEB, and two slots for 72-pin SIMMs. External memory provided by SmartMedia® card or SCSI to ZIP, to HD, or CD-ROM (option). Controls include pitch-bend wheel, modulation wheel, master volume slider, assignable control slider, assignable knob, A/D input gain, and rotary encoder. Connections include Left/mono, Right 1/4" jacks, L/R assignable 1/4" output, two foot controller inputs, one foot switch input, one sustain pedal input, MIDI in/out/thru, A/D inputs (L/R, mic, line, stereo 1/4" jack), one breath controller input, stereo headphone output (1/4" jack), a SCSI connection, USB (MIDI 3 port), and optical (TOS-Link) digital out.

You know what comes into my mind? Yes, yes and yes: to Yamaha and all the world arrangers ARE NOT professional and not for pro studio recordings. That's why they don't bother to put all that stuff, but ask about $3000 for the arranger keyboard.

Shame.

NYer: I fully agree... the Motif is fully dressed digitally. Also, the Motif was the first instrument that Yamaha released it's new OPT panels for voice editing to use with Sonar. They still haven't done that even for the 9000Pro. Heck, they haven't even released a generic XG voice editing OPT panel. Seems like a Motif and a QY700 combo might be more of a modern-technology-arranger than anything Yamaha is making in their arranger line.

Then again... a tiny footnote on Page 3 of the Tools for Tyros manual says that the Tyros Voice Editor and the File Utility programs are stand-alone applications OR OPT applications. That means you can open these programs from within a sequencer like Cakewalk Sonar 2.0. I assume that would also mean that the Tyros voice editor has or is also a Cakewalk instrument definition file. Funny the things you discover in the fine print...

WHY IN THE WORLD THEY COULDN'T MAKE MOTIF AS AN ARRANGER?

For those who wouldn't want that - just turn accomp. OFF.

It's that easy.

technicsplayer, you're probably right. The digital out would bypass any analog conversion (assuming they build it that way, which is not a given).

Why didn't they make the Motif an arranger? There are probably many reasons, here are two that come to mind:
Price would be prohibitive for many people.
"Professional Workstation" image of Motif would likely be tarnished (to those people who consider arrangers to be "unprofessional").

If it doesnt sound better, and have better features than the Motif, then buy the Motif. Digital out is not necessary for 99.9% of arranger customers, including me, and probably you. Why would we want to pay for it. If Yamaha can't get $3,000 for Tyros, so what, it's destined to flop. A digital out would make no difference to most of us so if I was Yamaha, I wouldn't be worrying too much about digital outputs. I'll wait til I play it to judge.

Midnite

Midnite,
I agree with you much ado over nothing.
Terry

I know of no digital product providing a digital out by putting the final analogue signal through a A/D converter, and if they did, the designers deserve to be shot!

One big advantage of digital out is for making your own audio cds on a pc. It does not matter if you have a $10 or a $1000 soundcard, you get the same top quality recording.

Midnight: I do not wanna buy Motif simply because it's not an arranger. And yes, Motif has way better features than any arranger right now.

You might wanna say that I can't get everything in one box. True. But can it be done? yes. Will I pay for an arranger Motif for $5000? Oh yes. And it's not only because of digital I/O. It's because of a good sequencer, ability to add cards with sounds, arppegiator, AWESOME drum kits, real-time effects, you can tweak the sound any way you want, great support (just look at motifator.com), I can go on more on that. Do not tell me you wouldn't want all that. I just hope Yamaha would read this message instead of yours who just simply saying: OK, dont have this or that and too much $$$ for Tyros, but it's OK with me, don't even bother putting whats a MUST....

I'm sure Tyros is a good machine, but it doesn't mean we can't mention what we would want in it.

New Yorker,
While I think the Mofif is a nice board....I had one before my PA 80, it has quite a few short comings too, as do all boards. For one, the arppegiator isn't anywhere near that of a Triton dual arp setup. It has some polyphony issues too. It was not very user friendly either. I thought the sequencer was just short of a nightmare to operate.
Would I love to see an arranger/workstation combo you bet.
Terry

Who the hell cares? This is the first time a digital output seemed a necessecity in any arranger keyboard, of course after the fact it is announced. Sorry if seem a little harsh, but if your REALLY that interested in good sound quality for your studio, you WONT look for an all in one solution, because nothing exists. No triton, 9000, etc, will ever make that proffessional sound you are all looking for. If you think about it, if there was a full proof all in one solution, everything else would become obsolete, and do you really think that is going to happen?
And I am not so anti-arranger person, I owned the g1000 and now the pa80 and love them. But if i really lead myself to believe there will ever be a PERFECT keyboard, I would take myself to the hospital and detox myself, because I must be high on some major drugs. Appreciate the improvements that these componies try and give to you. And you won't get so angry if you didn't shell out 3grand everytime a new keyboard came out. If your interested in your studio, buy a good computer and a good sound card with good converters, or a seperate converter that sounds incredible.

Had to vent sorry...

Macbabbi: disagree completely. You can make awesome music with just one decent workstation. If you can't - than you won't make good music with 100 keyboards in your studio. Sorry.

Trtjazz: I tried Motif for a week. Sequencer is very powerful and you just need to learn how to work with it, like with any keyboard. You can't judge a sequencer on Motif by "playing" with it in a store. It was nightmare for you, and it was pleasure for me, so I think it's a matter of a mind set: What's hard for you is easy for me and vice versa.

According to motifator, polyphony issue is solved with Motif.

Yes, arppegiator is much better on Triton than Motif. Well, what is your point? I believe Tyros doesn’t have any…

Um no one is talkinga about music in this case. I am talking about proffessional digital sound, which is now a requirement for some od-ball reason. Arranger workstations are made for live situations, and for song writing ideas. It is not meant to be the easy way out of making music and proffessional arrangements. Anyone who ONLY uses that for their arrangements, will never have that PRO sound you are all striving for. My point was, if you really want that SOUND, your not going to get it from a keyboard alone, actually NEVER. Why do pre-amps, g4's, Sound cards, etc, exist then? I will never believe that one single arranger keyboard will ever take the place of all that.
As far as making music, you are right, you can make great music with a single workstation, but it will always miss something. Live is a different story. I am still amazed what the PA80 does for a live situation. You'll never ever believe that I am playing ALL of that music live with all of my own programmed rhythms.

So again, I'm talking sound, not music,

Thanks
-Alfred

I thought not to reply at all to end this discussion which was NOT only about digital out but the features that all arrangers miss compare to non-arranger workstations.

Yes, the sound cards/gear exists to create a pro sound... But where this sound should come from? Well, that was the point that if the sound comes from digital out (from an arranger) it creates a very clear audio vs. analog (and then a/d conversion). So you do need digital outs FOR great sound cards to receive the sound.

Anyway, lets just end this discussion, my point was about features on arrangers and non-arrangers and the price.

Fine that Tyros doesn't have digital I/O, fine that it doesn't have sampler, fine that there is no arp, fine that there are crapy drums (outdated) and so on. But I tell you what's in there that outdo any workstation in relation to what it does and what Yamaha ask for it: about $2600 (if u buy in Europe).

It should cost no more than $1900 for what it has and what it does. That was my point.

New Yorker,
Two things....I owned a Motif for about 8 months, not just looked at one in a store, but you're right easy for one hard for the next.

I guess you missed my point entirely here:
"Yes, arppegiator is much better on Triton than Motif. Well, what is your point?"

My point was that none of us will ever see the perfect board with the perfect functions in everything and each board is some sort of compromise.

"I believe Tyros doesn’t have any…"

And is why I said I would love to see a combination arranger/workstation. For me though and the work I do, if I have to opt for one or the other which I do like everyone else does,(in just 1 board) I prefer an arranger.
jam on,
Terry




[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-13-2002).]

If the KN7000 demos are an example of the benefits of having digital out, then I would rather stick to analog! From what I have heard, the 7000 is thin, edgy, cold and clinical, it reminds me of the first phase of cd players that hit the market. I prefer warm evocative sounds, fat warm bass and the sounds that old roland synths produced.. I think Yamaha keyboards to date have achieved a warm and more natural sound, whether its because of analog outs I dont know but for me having digital outs isn't going to make any difference at all. This keyboard is intended as an arranger, a performance keyboard, I dont see many pro studios using them but even if thats the case, I dont think that the analog outs are going to be the death of the Tyros! The psr740 schematic showed it was quite simple to access the digital ins to the D-A convertors before the analog stages, I dont think it would be a problem to fit an aftermarket conversion if required - though you could also think about upgrading (if necessary) the analog output components, op amps etc. I think the analog stages help to smooth off the nasty digital roughness that otherwise creates cold lifeless music...

Simon



------------------
________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

U know what? The less we talk about features the less possibility that Yamaha would do anything about it.

I just hope that people like MusiMan and Co. (including myself) won't take everything that comes from Yamaha and Co. for granted. Otherwise they will think that everything they put in their arrangers is good for us and just stop improving it. So keep on speaking out!!

By the way: There are people out there like me who do use arrangers in the studio. Just keep it in mind. We just have to spend more money on other gear for the features we need. But why?

Can anyone who close to Yamaha management or Engineers can ask them why the hell they can't include arranger capabilities in any of their top non-arranger workstations? Or is it not a legitimate question?

I use all the boards I've had strictly for studio work and have never felt the need for digital and never has anyone said to me in 56 cd's man that sounds like crap did you use analog?
Terry

I use all the boards I've had strictly for studio work and have never felt the need for digital and never has anyone said to me in 56 cd's man that sounds like crap did you use analog? That includes other artisits, some of which are using digital I am sure, because we have spoken about it and the general buying public.
Terry

What I was trying to say is that for $3K keyboard they could've included digital I/O. That's it. For some people it's a MUST for others it's not.

I think is a great machine, if only they could've room for expansion OR up-to-date drums.

Now if I'll get one I will have to spend money on a drum machine (plus difital a/d). Not fair I think for a $3K board

NY,
I can't really disagree that the price of all arrangers are pretty high. I'd even go so far as to say at $3k they have reached my upper limit as far as perceived value by me. After this price bracket then they truly need to do a combo board that has everything on it that a great arranger and a great workstation have. Including what you have mentioned and for me an arppegiator would be a must have. I'm really not sure why an arranger should cost that much more than a workstation.
jam on,
Terry

The price of arrangers might seem ridiculously high, but bear in mind this isn't the materials cost we are talking about. The research and development that goes into these machines, the studio time for sampling all those instruments and the licensing of samples etc, the cost of creating custom i.c's for new machines ( I dont mean producing them), the specialised market output, its no wonder they have to keep them high in price. If more people bought them, the cost would come down. Consider the technology we get today and compare it to 20 years ago, there's a lot of bang for buck in these boxes!

S.



------------------
________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Simon,
I hear what you're saying.....but, following that logic, my PC should now cost about $50,000.00. While the amount of sales may be there, the increased complexities of programs, power, R&D, features etc, should have driven the price up substantially. The first calculator I ever bought (desktop) add subtract mulitply and divide (no tape)....cutting edge at the time was $100.00.....now for $6.00 or less, I can do scientific calculation, calculus, geometry on and on.

So along with the increase in the technology comes along a better cheaper way to build these things, keyboards should not be an exception. The workstations use these same expensive sampling methods as well.

Anyway, I am shelling out my money for the Tyros....but I do think they are at the very high end of "bang for the buck."
Terry

You know what, this thread has made me come to appreciate my beloved Trinity and Korg I30 so much. I think Korg almost had the perfect workstation with the trinity, Built in studio, Digital effects, insert effects, Hard disk, Digi out, etc etc, but for me, it lacked everything my Korg I30 has, an Arrangeer engine !! So here, this companys do this on purpose. They know that one product shall not cater to everyone, otherwise there goes their other products.
But I think that as of right now, I have the perfect setup. the powerful editing and beutiful sounds of the Trinity V3, and the Truly pro sounding Arrangements of my i30.
I have made songs, where people could swear I had a complete band recording in my studio. When I told them it was all done in my Workstation, they just could not believe me. I know this conversation is about the Tyros not having digital out, but in reality, its a conversation about why Yamaha continues the trend on why people see the Arrangers as toys and not professional products. Why, because companies like yamaha and others dont include all the Top of the line options that they include in their top of the line keyboards. Thats it really !!
Im perfectly happy recording from analog out or from Digital out. But if I had the choice, specially after forking out $3K then, I would definitely chose Digi out. Wouldnt you? Yes, of course.. The fact of the matter is that Yamaha just didnt care !!
I really hope Roland and Korg have something special up their sleeve this Winter !!!

Best,

Ditto!

That's exactly what I've said many times on this board.

I'd pay extra $2K for Triton if it'd included arranger on board.

Korg Yamaha and Co.: just create 2 versions of Triton. One is without an arranger ($2000 or whatever), the other - with an arranger ($3000).

Why to produce Pa PSR VA and other stuff when you've created the best already?????

What exactly, is the best already? The Triton? I don't think so.

There is an answer for everyone who needs an arranger with digital outputs: use MIDI to hook up a QY100 to a Motif.

New Yorker

PA80 is arranger with TRITON sounds and synth engine.

The Pro, you know, I have my Korg I30 Hooked up to my Studio via Midi, but would it be possible to actually use the Trinity and control the arrangements of my I30 via the Trinity? Or would I have to actually record everything as a midi file then play it on the Trinity?
I see that your idea would work, of course substituting the Motif for my Trinity and the QY100 for my I30, but,Would I use the soundsource of the Trinity or of the i30?
I have some knowledge of midi, but not so much. Only as much as that I know that my Studio controls my I30 or vice versa via midi. Thats about it....TIA

Best,

Shakil: you're making me laugh

The only thing that relate Triton and PA_80 together is the ENGINE. That's it. It doesn't mean PA_80 inherited same sequencer, arp, drums, option to add Triton cards and tons of other stuff that pa-80 could be dreaming about (and users like me).

UD: I knew this was coming :-) Of course Triton is not the best like anything that created is not the best. Relax, it was a form of expression.

No sweat. I just never got on the Triton Bandwagon. Probably because of the poor piano sounds. I'll take a Motif any day over a Triton.

UD,
I'm with you....I don't think so and I prefer the Yamaha piano for sure more.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-18-2002).]

MusiKMan: I'm certain that you could use your Trinity to control your I30 arrangements and vice-versa via MIDI. I'm not a Korg person but I assume the Trinity would be the better sound source choice and that it has the digital outs that would be what you'd use in a studio environment. The only problem is that you have so many, maybe too many, options to choose from with this setup. I would think about creating a pencil diagram of the different functions you would like to realistically use (ie: control start/stop and/or verse/chorus style changes on I30 from Trinity, have midi output of I30 play sounds on the Trinity, etc.) and then go through your owner's manuals and decided which parameter settings matches each desired result. Keep a MIDI-diary of the changes you make and be sure to save your settings as your "studio setup". MIDI settings are not really that difficult and you will know MIDI in general far more after you've bulldozed your way through this process.

Thanks TP !! Yeah, I could never understand basically if its possible to assign stuff like that on the trinity. You know, like Start/Stop, fill in, variations, etc. I need to figure out how I would do this via midi though. I know that the trinity doesnt have dedicated buttons for stuff like that, so Thats why I dont understand how I would assign commands like that. One thing for sure is that its true the sounds of the Trinity are so beautiful so I would rather use those to play the song.. I need to do what you said. I try to make a diagram or something.. Dont know, maybe ask more questions, but thanks for the info anyway..Really appreciate it..


best,

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