Diki, i don't want to start a feud here, but again you choose
to ignore the essential points of others' arguments, and to
sidestep and tapdance to promote the notions you began with. you fail to address the points with accuracy others are making and that is what is offensive, not the fact you may
disagree.

Well, to me that first post of yours does exactly the same. Or is it just me?

Firstly, my post is in reply to mikeathome's post (not yours), perhaps we might wait to see if HE is as offended as you that I might have a contrary position to what you obviously consider the IMPORTANT one (yours!)....

Secondly, as you know if you have already read my previous posts, I have no problem with anyone doing whatever the heck they feel like, in fact, I posted that I use the transpose button myself occasionally! You may be confusing me with the 'purists' on this thread that eschew transposition for ANY reason....

But to PROMOTE the idea, over more traditional paths to musical fluency is, IMO, not in the best interest of anyone that WANTS to learn and grow, You have very particular talents and requirements, and come from a very specific musical place and background (that few others here share). And are very comfortable there. To which I say 'No worries, do your own thing!'. You want to play everything in C (or F#!), go ahead, it's no skin off my nose...

BUT, despite that, claim that you CAN 'play in any key without thinking for one second about transposition', the very thing this topic got started about by people who couldn't (or didn't want to). So who's side-stepping the issue here?

Many on this thread posted that they have NO skills at all in many keys. You are FAR beyond that, claiming fluency in any key for single notes, and acceptable chord skills too (otherwise you couldn't play many songs with out of key sections). So who is ignoring who?

Look, maybe if you don't WANT a feud, you might also (as I try to do) not attack the poster for a contrary opinion, just try to state yours in a clearer way (which you have). After all, what is the point of this thread? If it just to say 'I do it THIS way, and that's all that matters', fair enough. But to say to others that this is a good path to being a better musician is not doing them a service. It IS one path towards better playing, but at the cost of what MANY (including myself) on this thread feel to be a necessary skill.

Or are we ALL wrong (or ignoring your points)?

techniques are developed and refined in all crafts, including music, as a necessity. as time goes by, techniques change and adapt to newer forms and technologies, for better or worse.

something is always lost, something else gained.
from ragtime to early jazz to Armstrong to swing to bebop to Trane and beyond, old disciplines disappear. if someone today can't play stride piano or boogie-woogie but can do Bill Evans and Monk and Oscar Peterson, nobody says he is deficient, as would have been the case 60-80 years ago.
technology today has made music different. no sense saying that certain technical proficiencies are a must anymore when they can be done in some fashion electronically. something is lost, for sure, but something
is gained, too. It's always hard on people who have
invested in certain techniques and technologies when
those are substituted and superceded. fans of the horse
had a lot of good arguments way back when the auto
first appeared on the scene. Armstrong killed off group
improvisation. Parker killed off jazz as dance music.

but thank goodness nobody has killed off music..not that
they aren't trying real hard to do that now...just beats and
babble..has its own artistic merit i guess, but it aint music
to these ears. just rhythm, no melody or harmony is not
my idea of music..but i do like the rhythms of hiphop so
much more than I liked rock or disco..whatever other
merits those musics have, the incessant boring loud
smack of the backbeat can't compare to the sophistication
of hiphop rhythm..

------------------
Miami Mo

All good points, Mo.

But, especially in light of the fact that this forum is mostly populated by players interested in those older (older than hiphop, anyway!) styles of music, that DO need a certain degree of fluency in any key (to play the bridge, if not the whole piece), unfortunately the transpose button is still not the answer.

The list of standards (not just jazz, but rock, pop and alternative) that have bridges, transitional sections and whole verses in keys other than what you start in is HUGE. You aren't suggesting that the transpose button be adjusted DURING the song, are you? That would be confusing, at best (and a train-wreck at worst!)....

If your goal is to play any tune that you want to, rather than ONLY any tune that doesn't have an out-of-key section, there doesn't seem to be any way around the necessity of coming to grips with different keys than you already know..

Technology has 'advanced' to the point that you don't have to play anything at all to be considered a musician (or so most hiphop DJs would have you believe!), but unless being one of these is a goal of yours, just keep up the study...

As I said, '12 months, 12 keys.... Coincidence? I think NOT!'

Boy, what I wouldn't give to hear you two guys on a live set. Read into that what you may.

chas

a friend of mine who is a much more skilled and trained
kb player than i often sits in on my gigs, and i love him to
play for any singers sitting in, so i get a chance to blow
some sax. recently he has started to ask me how to use
the transpose button, something he never used before.
it seems when a singer calls a tune in a key he is not
accustomed to playing that tune in, he sees the wisdom
of just using the transpose key instead of straining his
brain and his chops to figure out how to do it in another
key. i see nothing wrong with that, in fact i applaud his
open-mindedness and lack of false ego about it.

also re the sections of tunes that don't stay in the key:
it's easier to learn to do that than to learn a full 12-key
technique for every tune. again, i don't knock the benefits
of doing it the traditional way..i wish i could..but i feel
i'm trading off for other benefits. tradeoffs are personal.

Once again, I point out that I DO use the transpose button myself, for that very reason (familiarity with a song in one key, needed in another). But if you can't play in certain keys at all (as some here profess), you can't play certain songs, no matter WHAT key you start in.

That's all I've been trying to say. Transpose button is fine, but there are way too many songs with outside key sections that defy it's use. FAR better to be able to play in any key when needed, than to miss out on so many songs because you can only play a few keys and use the transpose button on simple songs rather than knuckle down and learn each key.....

I play in the key of the music I'm reading, because I'm too lazy to transpose it. I use the transpose key only if I'm trying to sing along with the song and the key is too high.
Starkeeper

The transpose buttons are there for a reason.... Do not fear them. It's quite handy to have. If you can transpose on the fly without the buttons, all the power to you. Still don't make you a better player though.

I knew players who could transpose at the drop of a hat, but their playing skills in general sucked. You could be well versed in music theory and still suck donkey balls when it comes to actually applying it.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-24-2007).]

As in other discussions about arranger features, I think the key here is to use the feature, but don't abuse it.

It's my approach to play as much of what comes out of the speakers as I can, and use features to "fill in the blanks".

That works for me, but I'd never say that is the right approach for everyone.

Good luck to all, however you approach the task of playing/performing.


R.