I used to be 100% styles also. In the last couple of years, I've begun using SMF's and MP3's so I can take the mic and go out into the crowd. This has been very effective as it breaks up the routine behind the keyboard. I use a Ketron MidJay which is loaded with many backing tracks for larger jobs. For smaller jobs, I use SMF's played through the Tyros and that works great. Like I say, it's great every few songs to take the mic out and sing to the crowd, get out on the dance floor, ect. It makes for good entertainment.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Yes of course, but that can be done without a arrangerkeyboard, a
midifileplayer or karaokemachine would do the backing.
But what if the audience having as good time that they start to
sing the refrain once again while your ending plays, not easy to
follow up then? Unless do it acapella I mean.

Please, misunderstand me right, everyone most do what they feel is
right for them, what I mean is that to playback midifiles do not
give me the freedom that use of styles do.

Happy Playing
GJ

Yes, styles are data sent and stored in same way as midifiles, but
maybe most people talk about midifiles as recorded songs ready for
playback?
Technics and Ketron have a feature called "pianist-mode" who let you
play with the styles even if you play as a pianist. Besides of that,
it's also possible to play manual bass, so the use of styles sure
can be varied a lot.
Repetitions? Well, as far as I can hear, most all songs are build up
by a lot of repeats. Intro, verse, refrain, bridge and end.
But then again, good keyboards and well made styles don't have to be
boring, even my old KN1000 had a nice feature called "dynamic accomp"
who made some nice changes simply by press the left hand keys a bit
harder.

Happy Playing
GJ

Thats easy to do by using SMF markers...Midijay has em & most Roland arrangers also..while the SMF is playing just set Markerpoints and you can then just jump back & forth anywhere in the song....

Yeah, I know, but:

While you're down the floor amomg the audience?
And when you're at the end of the song, how long
time does it take to do the edit, cause you'll
never know when it's needed when perform live?

Cheers
GJ

One of the main differences between SMFs and styles, IMO, is the bass lines.......

Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.

In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......

For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day.

So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence.

Add to that the fact that many of us here, home players and less skilled musicians (no disrespect intended, just an acknowledgment of the facts), are addicted to arranger play because it allows them to mess up the melody or structure and have the accompaniment STILL follow them rather than get lost..... In a REAL band situation, you lose your place, the guys are going to give you some hard looks! But with an arranger, you can blithely ignore the correct changes, or structure and no-one is the wiser (especially you!), and this often gives a sense of security that you don't get when you use SMFs.

Remember, SMFs do not have to be full arrangements. Far better to use them as a rhythm section - bass, drums, maybe guitar if you don't play with a guitarist - and play what you would play if you were in a live band, than to use them as glorified karaoke, and risk the disbelief disconnect with your audience.

I have often thought about arranger playing as a wasteful way to immobilize your left hand, doing something that a monkey could do, just to gain the dubious advantage of changing the structure of a song if the audience really needs it, when a set of markers in an SMF could rearrange it just as easily.

OK, perhaps there ARE some of you out there that are great jazzers, capable of reharmonizing and substituting chords like crazy. Good for you! But I suspect it is a VERY small percentage of our membership here..... Most of you tie up your left hands just inputting the same old set of changes every time. Why not record the arranger into a sequencer (just the accompaniment), edit it to have better voice leading, and put in markers for each section?

It is going to sound identical to what you are currently doing (other than have better chord transitions), and free up your LH to do what it can. A 100% increase in what YOU actually play, rather than the machine. Not too shabby.

I realize I'm going to upset some of the 'arranger purists', but personally, I refuse to let a technique arbitrarily dictate to ME how I should play anything. If arranger play works well enough, all well and good, if not, I will use whatever makes the music sound it's best. Some songs I use the full arranger - some songs I just use arranger drums and play LH bass, some songs I will use an SMF with just bass and drums, some have more parts. You have to make the machine work FOR the music, not the other way around.....

" Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.

In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......

For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day. So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence. " ....


Just my thought... I find there are many songs that can be covered with styles, however, songs that have distinct "bridges" (musically speaking), can not be covered with a generic style... The crowd, imo reacts differently if they recognize the song immediately, hence the midi file does this the best..... Ketron made "song styles" that had bridges built in to the variation of the style, which was cool to use in real time and have the audience identify the song quickly. So I just pay attention to the crowd//
What's interesting is that Yamaha/Roland /Technics never called their styles "song styles",even though many styles, sound like songs. Yamaha-Korg-Roland have always had "song books / one touch " features giving you suggestion for which style will be musically correct for the song you are looking for. Ketron's song styles can be very handy for real time performance.
Here's an example of ketron's song styles : SONG STYLES 1 - 9SD0S1 - Songs Styles
A WHITER SHADE OF PALE
DON’T BE CRUEL
HOLD ON I’M COMING
JOHNNY B. GOODE
LONG TRAIN RUNNIN’
STAND BY ME
WE HAVE ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD
WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN


When it comes to playing with midi files vs. styles with other musicians- I find that muting parts of midi sequences is the best when jamming with a drummer or guitarist or bassist...

I'll be back.. Dan O


Peace ...

The T2 has a style that sounds like "takin care of business".... but I couldn't or wouldn't use that style more than once ,
for a live performance..

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 01-28-2007).]

I don't honestly care whether the bass line of a Style is the same as a recorded version or not..... what's important is that it NEVER leads the changes, always follows.

My SMFs (at least the ones I edit, which is most!) don't necessarily use the recorded song version's bassline. I'm not trying to sound exactly like the record. But they DO work as real bass lines, not looped, repeated chunks of bass line!

Next thing to listen to, especially if you don't play with a guitarist, is how smooth the changes sound on the acoustic or rhythm guitar part is. There is altogether too much 'root-root' chord changing, rather than going from one inversion to another, as real guitarists do. It's another arranger dead giveaway.

The more you listen carefully to the differences between real rhythm section and arranger parts, the more you realize which songs will work OK on an arranger, and which cry out for a more dedicated SMF.

The trick still, with both types of playback, is to only use the absolute bare minimum of automatic parts. Play as much yourself as is humanly possible. Your audience will appreciate it.....

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-28-2007).]

It boils down to this...I am not entertaining musicians...my primary audience, when I'm not doing Yamaha demos, are listeners not players.


If it doesn't sound unique enough to some other musician, I could care less...my objective is a happy listener, not pleasing some other entertainer...they don't pay my salary.


The average listener doesn't care if I play left hand bass, or bass pedals, or two fisted chord clusters...they just want to hear something they know...and in my experience it doesn't have to be exact....just don't mess with the melody.

If you get more contentment by playing L.H. bass, and, you get your jiggers with a midi file banging away as you pound the keys over the top, just remember, this is primarily for your own satisfaction....90% of your audience don't really care.

Just don't pretend to play using local off on your keyboard...if you are found out, you're making the rest of us who do play, look very bad.

Ian



------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

your exactly right Ian,

you can dig for hours about all this technical crap but at the end of the day when it comes to actually playing live, things like that let fly and go un noticed. its not a form of being lazy or unprofessional, i would say your being more professional in a way as you are controlling the arrangement in real time other than playing along with a backing song...

instrument changes, pitch bends, modulation and other realtime controls are still easy to use while in arranger mode, you just need to perfect your timing and skills, and that makes a good musician!

Nick