|
|
|
|
|
|
#162276 - 01/28/07 10:13 AM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Member
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 892
Loc: Baltimore, MD USA
|
I used to be 100% styles also. In the last couple of years, I've begun using SMF's and MP3's so I can take the mic and go out into the crowd. This has been very effective as it breaks up the routine behind the keyboard. I use a Ketron MidJay which is loaded with many backing tracks for larger jobs. For smaller jobs, I use SMF's played through the Tyros and that works great. Like I say, it's great every few songs to take the mic out and sing to the crowd, get out on the dance floor, ect. It makes for good entertainment. Joe ------------------ Songman55 Joe Ayala
_________________________
PSR S950, PSR S900, Roland RD 700, Yamaha C3 6'Grand, Sennheiser E 935 mic, several recording mics including a Neuman U 87, Bose L1 Compact, Roland VS 2480 24 Track Recorder Joe Ayala
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162277 - 01/28/07 11:12 AM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Senior Member
Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4389
Loc: Norway
|
Originally posted by Songman55: .... For smaller jobs, I use SMF's played through the Tyros and that works great. Like I say, it's great every few songs to take the mic out and sing to the crowd, get out on the dance floor, ect. It makes for good entertainment. Yes of course, but that can be done without a arrangerkeyboard, a midifileplayer or karaokemachine would do the backing. But what if the audience having as good time that they start to sing the refrain once again while your ending plays, not easy to follow up then? Unless do it acapella I mean. Please, misunderstand me right, everyone most do what they feel is right for them, what I mean is that to playback midifiles do not give me the freedom that use of styles do. Happy Playing GJ
_________________________
Cheers 🥂 GJ _______________________________________________ "Success is not counted by how high you have climbed but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162278 - 01/28/07 11:32 AM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Senior Member
Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4389
Loc: Norway
|
Originally posted by Esh: It's worth pointing out that styles ARE midi files....... Yes, styles are data sent and stored in same way as midifiles, but maybe most people talk about midifiles as recorded songs ready for playback? Technics and Ketron have a feature called "pianist-mode" who let you play with the styles even if you play as a pianist. Besides of that, it's also possible to play manual bass, so the use of styles sure can be varied a lot. Repetitions? Well, as far as I can hear, most all songs are build up by a lot of repeats. Intro, verse, refrain, bridge and end. But then again, good keyboards and well made styles don't have to be boring, even my old KN1000 had a nice feature called "dynamic accomp" who made some nice changes simply by press the left hand keys a bit harder. Happy Playing GJ
_________________________
Cheers 🥂 GJ _______________________________________________ "Success is not counted by how high you have climbed but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162281 - 01/28/07 01:16 PM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
|
One of the main differences between SMFs and styles, IMO, is the bass lines.......
Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.
In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......
For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day.
So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence.
Add to that the fact that many of us here, home players and less skilled musicians (no disrespect intended, just an acknowledgment of the facts), are addicted to arranger play because it allows them to mess up the melody or structure and have the accompaniment STILL follow them rather than get lost..... In a REAL band situation, you lose your place, the guys are going to give you some hard looks! But with an arranger, you can blithely ignore the correct changes, or structure and no-one is the wiser (especially you!), and this often gives a sense of security that you don't get when you use SMFs.
Remember, SMFs do not have to be full arrangements. Far better to use them as a rhythm section - bass, drums, maybe guitar if you don't play with a guitarist - and play what you would play if you were in a live band, than to use them as glorified karaoke, and risk the disbelief disconnect with your audience.
I have often thought about arranger playing as a wasteful way to immobilize your left hand, doing something that a monkey could do, just to gain the dubious advantage of changing the structure of a song if the audience really needs it, when a set of markers in an SMF could rearrange it just as easily.
OK, perhaps there ARE some of you out there that are great jazzers, capable of reharmonizing and substituting chords like crazy. Good for you! But I suspect it is a VERY small percentage of our membership here..... Most of you tie up your left hands just inputting the same old set of changes every time. Why not record the arranger into a sequencer (just the accompaniment), edit it to have better voice leading, and put in markers for each section?
It is going to sound identical to what you are currently doing (other than have better chord transitions), and free up your LH to do what it can. A 100% increase in what YOU actually play, rather than the machine. Not too shabby.
I realize I'm going to upset some of the 'arranger purists', but personally, I refuse to let a technique arbitrarily dictate to ME how I should play anything. If arranger play works well enough, all well and good, if not, I will use whatever makes the music sound it's best. Some songs I use the full arranger - some songs I just use arranger drums and play LH bass, some songs I will use an SMF with just bass and drums, some have more parts. You have to make the machine work FOR the music, not the other way around.....
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162282 - 01/28/07 01:51 PM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
|
" Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.
In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......
For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day. So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence. " ....
Just my thought... I find there are many songs that can be covered with styles, however, songs that have distinct "bridges" (musically speaking), can not be covered with a generic style... The crowd, imo reacts differently if they recognize the song immediately, hence the midi file does this the best..... Ketron made "song styles" that had bridges built in to the variation of the style, which was cool to use in real time and have the audience identify the song quickly. So I just pay attention to the crowd// What's interesting is that Yamaha/Roland /Technics never called their styles "song styles",even though many styles, sound like songs. Yamaha-Korg-Roland have always had "song books / one touch " features giving you suggestion for which style will be musically correct for the song you are looking for. Ketron's song styles can be very handy for real time performance. Here's an example of ketron's song styles : SONG STYLES 1 - 9SD0S1 - Songs Styles A WHITER SHADE OF PALE DON’T BE CRUEL HOLD ON I’M COMING JOHNNY B. GOODE LONG TRAIN RUNNIN’ STAND BY ME WE HAVE ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN
When it comes to playing with midi files vs. styles with other musicians- I find that muting parts of midi sequences is the best when jamming with a drummer or guitarist or bassist...
I'll be back.. Dan O
Peace ...
The T2 has a style that sounds like "takin care of business".... but I couldn't or wouldn't use that style more than once , for a live performance..
[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 01-28-2007).]
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162283 - 01/28/07 04:55 PM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14277
Loc: NW Florida
|
I don't honestly care whether the bass line of a Style is the same as a recorded version or not..... what's important is that it NEVER leads the changes, always follows.
My SMFs (at least the ones I edit, which is most!) don't necessarily use the recorded song version's bassline. I'm not trying to sound exactly like the record. But they DO work as real bass lines, not looped, repeated chunks of bass line!
Next thing to listen to, especially if you don't play with a guitarist, is how smooth the changes sound on the acoustic or rhythm guitar part is. There is altogether too much 'root-root' chord changing, rather than going from one inversion to another, as real guitarists do. It's another arranger dead giveaway.
The more you listen carefully to the differences between real rhythm section and arranger parts, the more you realize which songs will work OK on an arranger, and which cry out for a more dedicated SMF.
The trick still, with both types of playback, is to only use the absolute bare minimum of automatic parts. Play as much yourself as is humanly possible. Your audience will appreciate it.....
[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-28-2007).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#162284 - 01/28/07 05:58 PM
Re: styles vs midi flles
|
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
|
It boils down to this...I am not entertaining musicians...my primary audience, when I'm not doing Yamaha demos, are listeners not players.
If it doesn't sound unique enough to some other musician, I could care less...my objective is a happy listener, not pleasing some other entertainer...they don't pay my salary.
The average listener doesn't care if I play left hand bass, or bass pedals, or two fisted chord clusters...they just want to hear something they know...and in my experience it doesn't have to be exact....just don't mess with the melody.
If you get more contentment by playing L.H. bass, and, you get your jiggers with a midi file banging away as you pound the keys over the top, just remember, this is primarily for your own satisfaction....90% of your audience don't really care.
Just don't pretend to play using local off on your keyboard...if you are found out, you're making the rest of us who do play, look very bad.
Ian
------------------ Remember to leave good news alone.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|