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[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

I cant for the life of me understand why the weight of the MS is even an issue here. You want a solidly built keyboard, then darn-it "expect some added weight".

How many people do you see lugging around a 76 key Yamaha Motif ES or 76 key Korg Triton??? They're everywhere, and many are lugging the 88 key models around. These are around 40lbs and up, yet they're getting used "everywhere"! It's not a shock to the owners about the weight. These are solid road worthy synths, and that added weight is due to durability.

Dom's MS has a little weight to it because he doesn't build it like crap-and it's as simple as that. The unit has hi-quality parts. You can't have semi-weighted keys and not expect some added weight. You can't expect it to be built like a tank, and have a cheap plastic PSR style body with cheap buttons, ect. Come on folks be reasonable.

You may feel that Dom's position on weight is a little harsh, but tell me one keyboard company where the top dog to the company can be reached so easily? Tell me one keyboard company where you can reach to top man and get answers from him personally????????? I understand his position and agree with him. Why should the current weight be an issue, when the added weight is due to "durability", and his 76 note arranger's weight is comparable to 76 key synth/workstations?

**as far as styles are concerned.., even Dom agreed with a few of you, yet keep in mind the number of new styles on the way. Keep in mind the constant OS updates to add new features. Hell lets see a show of hands from everyone here who bought an arranger from Yamaha, Korg, Roland, or Ketron who got 100's upon 100's of FREE SOUNDS????, and ALL THOSE FREE SOFTWARE UPGRADES, not just to fix bugs, but to "drum roll" constantly add NEW features?

Domenik has listened to what end users and fellow Synthzone members have had to say about their wants, needs, criticisms, etc. I've never seen any other manufacturer have that kind of customer support. If you have a question, Domenik is only a phone call or e-mail away and he always responds in a timely fashion. When's the last time you spoke to the President of Yamaha, Korg, or Roland on the phone or in person? I'm guessing never! Domenik actually cares about what his customers have to say and he's doing great things with the Mediastations software updates. Personally I can't say the same for Yamaha who left me in the dust when I had a PSR9000 Pro and waited months for a software update that never materialized (not even to this day). What about Technics who dumped their entire keyboard line after many people shelled out thousands of dollars on a KN7000. That's not the type of support I want when I spend that kind of money on any product.

Domenik's not going to lower the Mediastations build quality just to make it lighter weight, that would be silly. Sure, some people may not want to carry around a heavy keyboard but if you are spending that kind of money on a high end arranger keyboard, do you seriously want it to be made cheaply? I know I don't.

I have to wonder... how many of the people who are actually criticizing the Mediastation have ever seen, heard, or played one in person? Seriously, how many of us are there that would or have truly shelled out $4,000.00-$10,000.00 dollars or more for a high end arranger or workstation keyboard? Not to sound rude but if you can't afford to buy the product or you would never spend that kind of money on any keyboard, let alone an open ended system, why even bitch about it?

"So..better stop with the weight arguments because I really don't care and I will not listen."
That's what he said. BUT, I shouldn't have generalized about his listening to customers.
I do appreciate the fact that Dom is accessible and that he is willing to work with his customers. Keep up the good work.
I am not arguing. I don't care how wonderful it is. It's not suitable for my purposes and I won't be carrying it around every day.
I can name half a dozen arrangers that do the job very well and weigh in the 30-pound range. I'm 63 years old and have a bad back, and I move my equipment sometimes 4-8 times a week. I don't really care for semi-weighted keys, because the progressing arthritis in my right hand is aggravated by the heavier keys.
I won't be using the arranger for studio work. The sounds the top arrangers come with are more than adequate to entertain the folks for which I play.
I'm not saying anyone else should be concerned about the weight, only that I am. So the MS is out of consideration for me, that's all. It is in good company because GEM, Wersi and the top Rolands are also out of the picture for me.
I do hope to hear Fran's MS one day, and I know it will sound great, but I won't be getting one.
As for happy faces, all one must do is follow the Golden Rule. In case we've forgotten, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Good advice regardless of its origin, or of which religion, if any, we observe. A lot of us haven't been following that at all, and I'm so dissappointed and so sad that I have trouble even reading the forum because I don't want to see what will happen next.
Go in peace and make beautiful music. Or at least danceable.
DonM



[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 12-17-2006).]

I can understand both sides here. I can appreciate the the MS is designed to meet a particular market so I have no criticism of that. Weighted keyboards provide a keyboard action that is demanded by the professional player. There is no way you can avoid the weight that this sort of action demands. I'd always choose to play a weighted action in a studio environment or live gig where keyboard weight is not an issue.

On the other hand I play in a live band myself and carrying my own gear in my car limits the type of keyboard I carry to a 61 key non-weighted action ( ie Motif 6 ) so I can also identify with DonM's sentiment. Neither choice is right or wrong but is simply determined by practicality. When I'm playing piano parts I really miss the weighted action. Then on the other hand when I'm playing organ and synth parts I do love playing a non weighted action. If I have a road crew carry and set up my keyboard rig then I'd definately have both actions available. Unfortunately I have to choose just one keyboard that I use for all parts. It is always a compromise.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-17-2006).]

I wasn't talking about Dom or how good he is or his kb is.
there is no need for anyone to defend him in terms of the weight issue, and i was not trying to criticize his fine kb. I was discussing weight as a factor in the utility of arranger kb's that most pros travel to gigs with. There are many musicians who are impervious to the weight issue, in fact some are outright masochists, bringing the biggest and loudest amd most complicated to set up sound systems to any and all gigs in the belief that it makes them sound better than they are, let alone lugging heavy keyboards around. but for the majority, weight is an issue, a real issue, one that cannot be swept aside by saying that's the trade-off for quality. The trend everywhere in all electronic devices is compactization, lighter weight--and higher utility. computers, cameras, phones, tv's etc. The trend in kb's seems to be going in the opposite direction, which i fail to understand, except that maybe it is felt that a heavy metal and wood case gives the person who spends that kind of money a feeling they are getting their money's worth. A plastic case can be made well and hold up to all but the most extreme abuse for long periods.
The quality of the electronics inside bears little relation
to weight. Weighted, even semi-weighted keys are for piano purists who will use the piano sound foremost and want the familiar action. Weighted keys interfere with playing most of the other kb sounds with the expression appropriate to the other instrument sounds, so should be offered as an option. What i am saying is that I find no
credence in the argument that it is necessary to have a
heavier kb to have a better kb, and that the manufacturers know this, but don't feel they can justify the prices without the legendary "thunk" of the door closing on
Cadillacs, back in the day when that was the standard.

------------------
Miami Mo

For me the weight is not an issue - sure it's heavy but when out gigging it is nice to have you have a solid well built bit of kit and not something that you have to treat with kit gloves. In terms of Dom listening to customers - this is one area that he MUST be defended on - he was recently in the UK and I spoke to him about some concerns I had and the next thing I knew he was at my front door...now THAT's customer service!!! I ca honestly say that the CEO of Yamaha,Korg or my beloved Roland has never done that!
Sure the MS has a long way to go - but given time this will be the instrument of the future...Dom does listen, he is working around the clock to provide a real quality instrument, and as the updates come out it does get better and better. I have been critical of it - much of the time because of the styles - but as for piano sounds and B4 there is currently nothing better (Yes I know personal opinion) ... and of course you can add to the MS whatever you like...vst's, Giga, and so on...
Enjoy and seasons greetings to one and all,
Mark!

Nigel, I never did play piano. Started on trumpet, then bass, then drums and guitar, then organ.
Maybe that's another reason I don't like the fully weighted keys.
I do wish there were more company people who were willing to work with the buyers. Dave McMahan, AJ and now Dominic seem to be exceptions to the rule. Of course they are all with smaller companies that don't have a lot of layers to go through and that helps.
Bedtime now.
DonM

Ok guys....
I will correct my last post about the weight and why I can NOT reduce drastically the MS weight.
Here the points:
1) we use the best Fatar Synthesizer keyboard TP/8SK 76 keys weighted and ONLY this keyboard part is about 12Kg. In our MS production we will never use the cheap plastic and short 61 keys models that are about 5Kg. We are not interested to produce Home keyboards but only professional workstation models.
2) With the 76 keys weighted model we MUST use a metal case, because the keyboard is to much lenght and deep, NEED a stable case structure OR when you pickup the MS in one side, the cover and bottom case are moving like a sandwich.
3)12 PCB boards, Mainboard, ATX powersupply, HD IDE 3.5, DVD drive, Display have one weight that we can NOT cut or reduce. Buy there one standard ATX OC case, install the all hardware and you have a basic weight too that you can NOT reduce.
4) FCC and CE approval: Inside the MS we have one standard ATX PC with the standard ATX power supply where the ALL boards MUST be fitted in a Metal Case with the same Ground. CPU over 800/1000 Mhz clock have a lot of interference, NEED a metal case or we never can have the FCC/CE approval. So..untill we will use a standard PC CPU we never can make the MS under a plastic case.

These are the BASIC reason why we can NOT make the MS less weight and that will never be a Home keyboard.
I think now you have understand our position and why I will not listen about this arguments because I don't have any chance to design it again under plastic parts.
Is a compromise..if you like the power you need change the case too.
This is like a car, if you have a 100Hp engine this need a 15 Inches wheels, but if you have a 400Hp engine you CANT use the 15 inches wheels you need to have the 19/20 inches wheels too, it mean to change the car case too, right? Can then have the same weight with the new bigger parts?
Is a compromise, try to understand me too.

The weight is going to be an issue for any arranger player. Its stupid, yes i said stupid for any arranger keyboard manufacturer to market an arranger keyboard to an arranger forum and then denigrate the instruments that the 90% of the members use (that as it happens sound better as arrangers than the one being marketed)simply because it is made out of light weight durable material. Which is precisiely why the members bought those instruments in the first place ! A professional instrument is an instrument suitable for the working musician (pro) that uses it. It has nothing to do with the material it is made from.

I get slightly ticked off when the MS's potential customers provide feedback to encourage sales and the product designer , marketer/sales person is down right rude to them. Thats all kinds of stupidity !!!

There are many current and perhaps future updates. Why is this marketed as a good thing ? Its good if the updates are to correct bugs but if this is the case then it means the instrument was not ready when sold in the first place. Its good if it increases functionality but not if the increased functions are not what the Market have been asking for. Just so that we are clear, the one functionality that THIS market has been asking for from the MS product is better and more balanced sounds using the giga that come shipped with the product.How many of the updates delivered and promised for the MS are specifically in response to users request to improve the arranger function as above ? I am told there is an update coming that will do this but it unfortunately means that the instrument IS NOT currently ready for the market it is currently being marketed to and i am yet to be convinced by either the manufacturer, their demos, or existing MS users that have come on this site that there is proof that it is. If i am wrong then fine i will accept some critiscism with good grace (something others could learn to do perhaps).

And for the record i am a member of the korg forum and regularly have send emails to Mr Trammoni who is one of the product managers for Korg. He listens , deals with technical queries , and responds to product suggestions and updates which is why in December this year the Pax1 range will recieve an upgrade basically providing almost all the increased functionality that the PA800 has for FREE within the limits of the PAX1 hardware. Thats means that the polyphony and sampling limits remain but pretty much everything else is updated.When we critiscise the PAX1 on that forum (and we do from time to time) we have never been insulted or talked down to from the Korg Product manager because he quite sensibly recognises that our suggestions/complaints are "buying signals" and we just need the reassurance that our concerns are recognised (hence the Pa800 is lighter than the PAX1 and it is very much a professional keyboard). Bare in mind that Korg is probably one of the largest keyboard manaufacturers in the world. They dont do everything perfectly but the one thing i need them to do well is produce a market ready instrument designed and able to meet the needs of the market it is aimed at.

Other smaller manufacturers could learn lessons from this.