Nothing important, but the following scenario happens to me a lot. It happened again yesterday.
A keyboard player will hear me somewhere, and come up to talk afterwards. Of course they always want to know what kind of "synth" I'm playing. When I tell them, they have never heard of it. I then have to explain how an arranger works. It's best to tell them something like, "It's a specialized synth, with backing tracks that follow your chords in real time". Most react with something like "Wow, that must be really new techology".
Then they want to know the price, and I will quote them full list. This usually ends the conversation.
Recently one asked my opinion of a Roland Phantom, because he "wants to do like I do".

I told him I wasn't familiar with Phantom, but that if he really wants to do what I do, he has to get an arranger keyboard.
Sometimes these conversations end quickly, but often the guy really wants to know about arrangers.
In years past, they tended to turn up their noses at what I was doing. Lately the level of respect for arrangers seems to have gone up, probably in proportion to the advances in sounds and functions.
Yesterday I told a guy who's son lives in California to have him call George Kaye and be prepared for an education!
Get ready George.
DonM

I have run into this situation many times while performing live with the PSR-3000.

It seems the biggest problem facing traditional piano players with an arranger, is learning how to play chords in a more restricted area of the keyboard(when using split keybd)and keeping the hand still during performance.

Also "playing" the sounds in the style of the the instrument selected, rather than in a pianistic fashion, is sometimes an issue.

Synth and organ players seem to have less trouble wrapping their minds(and fingers) around the arranger use.

Ian



------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

Don ignorance flows from "where do you get those cassettes you play" to "wow that's some sound you get out of that box"
"Is that you singin'?"
You cant blame them playing the arranger on a "PRO" level takes years of experience playing thru the evolution of its existence with the thought process & mindset of becoming & performing as a total LIVE band all by yourself utilizing and playing all its parts as prescribed all at once......if you cant do that choose another hobby or profession or instrument to play.
I'll usually & vaguely give curiosity seekers & non believers a simple answer & hope they leave me alone after that.......its like asking a Doctor "hey how do you do that open heart surgery that looks easy"
Just be courteous and modest and smile.....because you know inside you got the goods......& they dont, they'll all have to pay their dues just like the rest of us, There are NO SHORTCUTS IN THIS GAME

I'm right there with you as a piano player it's tough to keep that left hand still. I also have my split point set at b2/c3. I need more real estate with the left hand.


Don, I too was one of those keyboard players a few years ago who had no idea what an arranger was. All I knew was when my wife bought me a $150 Casio keyboard as a birthday gift I said to her. Well, nice of you who needs this little toy when I got this $6000 grand piano sitting in the living room, why on earth would I need this keyboard. Well 4 years later a lot has changed for me including selling the grand that I rarely played anymore after getting into arrangers. Cool idea quoting them full list


Donny, I also get a kick out of the comments, what else ya got in that box!!



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 01-12-2007).]

It happened to me on 'New years Eve' a guy at the end came up and introduced himself as a keyboardist, he'd been listening to me all night performing on my PSR3000 topped with an additional synth keyboard. I'm backing 2 vocalist's and adding backing vocals and playing in excess of 50+ numbers in original keys trying to add parts on top of the arranger to emulate the songs we played close to the original orchestrations , the guy asked where I got the arrangements from?
No arrangements 'mate' I said, I manipulate drum, bass and additional instruments loops via chording to match the song chords progressions of the originals, if I walk away form the keyboard so do the arrangements!...HE walked away looking very confused...but it was good to think that he thought he was listening to pre-recorded arrangements, he obvioulsy did'nt hear my mistakes!

Rgds
Noel J

I have to disagree a little... I think the Arranger keyboards are more popular than Workstations (especialy in countries besides U.S.), even keyboard manufactures are putting ther latest technology in Arranger keyboards, all the musicians that i know personally, most of them(~95%)use arranger keyboards, and think of a workststion as just something compeletly bizzare or a digital piano or something.
But if you take whole music industry in general, than we can say not "Arranger ignorance" but "keyboard ignorance" .

The U.S. is WAY behind in "arranger appreciation". Most U.S. "pros" still look down on them.
DonM

I had Casio keyboards back in the 80s so I have always appreciated arranger keyboards. They are really just a regular synthesizer combined with an AI driven MIDI sequencer that follows your playing. It's not really very hard to understand but I guess people that aren't familiar with them are mystified by them. I am actually puzzled why ALL synths don't come with arranger abilities because it probably doesn't cost the manufacturer barely anything to include it in the ROM. There is really no reason why the entire Yamaha Motif range don't all have the ability to have onboard arranger styles. I guess it is just a marketing decision.

Another factor is that veteran musicians still have a block on their shoulder against arrangers with that
"Your putting alot of musicians out of work playing that arranger thing" mentality which makes them hate OMB acts in general...... I say PHOOEY to that !

hi
could someone tell me what the diffrence is between an arranger keyboard and workstation keyboard and what kind of keyboard is a wersi pegasus and a tecknics kn6000
thanks
bill

Hi Bill
Arranger keyboards developed from electronic organs, and are essentially single manual versions of these.
Workstations developed from synthesisers and therefore require more user input
However with modern technology the lines between the 2 are now blurring
You can find details of the instruments you mention from the links below.

http://www.organfax.co.uk/instruments/wersi/pegasus.html http://achamilton.co.uk/Technics/KN6000.htm

Hope this helps

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 01-13-2007).]

thanks again abacus for helping me understand more, i take it that a keyboard that you can manualy set up backing tracks/rhythm's and store them is a aranger keyboard and it is not that diffrent to a workstation.
bill

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/keyboards/professional-keyboards/buying-guide.php

.
>>>...i take it that a keyboard that you can manualy set up backing tracks/rhythm's...>>>

Nope. An arranger keyboard responds to the player's instructions in real time. The backing tracks do not exist until you start playing the song and tell the keyboard what to do.

.

Bill ... It's great to see another KN6000 player here ... and with an interest in golf !!! ... I'm not familiar with the pegasus, but the KN6 is a great arranger keyboard ...

Would you share some of your kb work with us?
t.




[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 01-13-2007).]

Golf, did you say golf? It's 72 degrees right now. I have to try to beat the rain.
Adios!
DonM

This is part of a discussion on the Motifator forum about the motif XS and the Tyros 2. Many people are surprised that the T2 with its SA voices sounds better than even the flagship XS and want to know the difference between the two instruments as they are seriously considering the T2 as an alternative.....But the qoutes below are shocking !

This typifies the ignorance and misinformation being given and discussed in keyboard forums (and no doubt shop floors)but you will be shocked by the source of the following qoutes

"Tyros 2 is a completely different product aimed at a different market. For one thing - it is NOT programmable to anywhere near the extent the XS is. If you buy a T2 expecting to make your own brilliant sounds - you're buying the wrong instrument.

The sounds on the T2 are editable - to a small degree. You use "offsets" to "adjust" aspects of the individual voices - but it's not the same as the XS where you can start from scratch to build sounds. You can't change the waveform of a T2 guitar sound to a different guitar for example, or change the filter type, or...man, I could go on for paragraphs.

The T2 is ideal for one-man band musicians, entertainers, people who like auto-accompaniment keyboards. The XS is a studio tool designed to allow you to create sounds as well as heavily modify them a million different ways and store the results. As well as being a live gigging keyboard for people in a band.

Please folks - wait for some better demos for the XS. And after that, please go see it "in person". Audio demos don't begin to tell the whole story. Nor does someone else's evaluation"

Thats not quite true about the editability of the sounds of the T2. I am sure you owners on here know fullwell the depth of editing that can be done with the software supplied with your T2 Buts lets allow that for now . Read on .....

"This is very true. But here are some differences between the XS and the Tyros 2.

On the Tryos 2 the styles are bound together. That is the Funk style is has a Funk Drum, Bass , Guitar and keyboard part in it. It is not so easy to combine different phrases from different styles."

And this comment


"On the XS , it is easy to combine different parts from different styles to make completely different kinds of music.

Also you have more control over the individual parts because you can record them individual one a time. "

My response

"I dont think thats true. You can mix styles and intruments and create your own original patterns or linear tracks just like a workstation. To say that if you use a funk style you are tied in to using the funk drum kit or bass sound is totally incorrect. You can mix and match to your hearts content. These functions were available even on arrangers like the yamaha psr8000 which was the flag ship arranger 8 years ago !

Unless musicians actually play these instruments and dig into their functions they will continue to believe that they are only suited to people jamming along at home with themselves.These instruments in very many cases are far more appropriate to the song writer and serious musician than many of the workstations that have been bought and lead to frustatrating the creative juices that the instruimenmt sound inspired in the first place !

No disrespect intended Yamaha US"

The qoutes are shocking because they originate from TWO OF YAMAHA'S OWN STAFF IN THE USA WHO ARE INVOLVED IN EITHER PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT/SALES OR MARKETING !!!!

If they are ignorant about the instruments capabilities that come from their own company , what hope does the buying public have in order to buy an instrument that is actually most suited to their needs as opposed to " the most advanced workstation"

I was flabbergasted.

My last word on the subject was

"I just saw the demo of Bert on Google. My goodness.He may as well have just demoed a T2 !!!!! He demonstrates the creativity that an arranger inspires and the immediate ability to record play and edit what you have played and he then says " that is what makes this such a great workstation" .

Ok I'm done preaching Enjoy your music however you make it and whatever you make it on ! "

Watch the Demo and see what i mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LaWsCwMo3U&mode=related&search=

Nice Demo...it held my attention throughout..
I think the gaps between arranger and synth workstation are finally get closer year by year with new model releases for sure....
if they can simplify the OS for the beginner thru the pro levels so that everyone can understand and operate the unit easily we will make strides beyond our wildest dreams for sure....I for one cant wait!!!

Thanks for sharing

if they can simplify the OS for the beginner thru the pro levels so that everyone can understand and operate the unit easily we will make strides beyond our wildest dreams for sure....I for one cant wait!!!
---------------------------------------------

See that's where it gets tricky Dnj There are many arranger players who don't really dig into the synth editing on their units. The arrangers strive for that "out of the box" experience. The full synth is like a "Slutty Music Nympho" She's gonna give you some out the box bang, but she wants, she needs, to be tweeked. She's beggin for it

I think the market is already there. There should be more "in between keyboards".. More keyboards like the MM-6 for example. A basic synth that will get you into the concpet of what a full blown synth workstation will do.

It will be a lot of work to market a full synth to the beginner and pro. That manual alone would be as thick as a NYC phone book! This is the perfect spot for in between synths too. Arrangers can actually funtion as an in between (somewhat.. but, there are many players who don't use the synth function on their arrangers).

I get a lot of emails about editing sounds, and what does this "term" mean and what is it's function. These are some basic terms and fuctions that are on the PSR-1500/300, Korg PA's, and the Roland arrangers. Users of these arrangers just need to open their manual, read what the terms are, try to better understand what they do, and most importantly "tweek the sounds". Hands on is the best way to learn.

Squeak

I have never dismissed arranger keyboards,I did my first ever good and inspired composition with a bottom of the range Yamaha Portatone ,a tube amp for guitar,and my trusty guitar.
I have ALWAYS liked arrangers,because they ,infact,are a lot more instructional (for any musician,beginner or advanced) that a synth.
But after a few years,I have started to believe the crap about 'ah,if you have an arranger you are cheating' or something like that.
After 4 years of making music entirely on Cubase on my own,while studying harmony,I now HATE Cubase,and appreciate a lot more Band in a Box,One Man Band,and a Yamaha QY700 arranger sequencer that I just bought this week second hand.

Ok,even when I had no arranger keyboard,I had my Kurzweil K-2000 or my Roland XP-80,and I liked to tweak synth sounds,but let me tell you,I have always liked more to press a button and listen to a 'style'...that's music,not just the behavioural pattern of one sound.
Nowadays,I am not interested at all in tweaking sounds too much,it's too time consuming,I prefer to pick a sound and it's either there or I'll pick another that gets closer,and start thinking of the music rather than Envelope/ASDR settings etc...life is too short for that.
So I just wanted to say...arranger keyboards are GREAT instruments,now I just enjoy even listening to a style,listen to how all the parts interrelate,and learn from it,and that's even before I start playing something on top.

They are great springing boards for creative input,especially for people like me that tend to compose on their own.
The only thing I moan about arrangers ,is the somewhat excessive cost. I just wrote to Roland (I mention Roland,but also the same applies to Yamaha,Ketron,GEM,etc) to ask them if they would ever make a desktop version of the E-50 or even the E-80,that would allow one to spend about � 500 for an excellent desktop arranger (well,the E-50 can be bought for about � 600), rack up a quality controller keyboard of one's own preference, with semi-weighted or weighted keys (the latter can be found even for � 220 from Fatar...far superior than the keys on even the best arranger keyboards,too plasticky for what they cost),and have a top-notch setup for about than � 800-1000.
Yet,an E-80 costs about � 1500-1800 new,or more (don't know the exact price).

That's the only true thing about what the moaners say about Arranger keyboards...all the rest about 'cheating' or 'no professionalism' is unfounded.

I don't see why working with an Arranger is less 'pro' that someone killing himself while trying to write all his music from scratch... it's great to press a button and to listen to the drums and a bassline and start building around it. That's still making music! The only difference are that the person is getting the rhythm section from the arranger rather than from real people...so?
The skill of a musician does not depend on what he uses...an arranger is an instrument. I know I am talking a bit to myself here,I was just saying what other people say here,too

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

The point I am making Don and Squeak is that the ignorance of arranger Keyboard capabilities goes right the way back up to the manufacturer themselves . They are so intent on selling styles and the immediate useability of arrangers that they have completely missed the rest of the market that want a flexible instrument even though arrangers are incredibly flexible ! The workstation users are loving the arranger features on the XS and Bert is singing its praises like its cutting edge technology never seen on a workstation before when in fact it is very well established old technology on their existing workstaion ! But the purchasers of "high end workstations " and the demonstrators are completely ignorant of perhaps more suitable instruments like an arranger. Go on the Motifator Forum and you will see how many users dont know the first thing about this "highend Workstation " that they have just purchased.

Its not just the Arranger owners that dont delve into their instrument manuals.

For many musicians, they have purchased the absolutely wrong type of instrument because of ignorance and marketing hype. Perhaps Martin Harris (The main Tyros Developer) Ought to spend more timein the sales department demonstrating some of Tyros's other features rather than just styles . Or get Bert to demo the Tyros.. The sales of the T2 wouldshoot up !

Spalding..... you don't honestly think that a product specialist or developer from Yamaha's workstation division is going to tout and promote technology from a competing division over his own.....?

The nature of corporate politics and finance (the more YOU sell, the bigger your R&D and promotional budgets) will always lead to an avowed ignorance about the capabilities of your competition (although I am certain they are more aware than they let on).

Unless the arbitrary differences between 'home' and 'professional" keyboards are removed at the corporate level, each one will continue to compete, rather than complement, with the other.

We ARE beginning to see the beginnings of the merging of the two technologies, but don't expect to see both sides jumping on the bandwagon while each side of this internecine fight figure out that the 'other side' has got technology and functions that they would like to see included in their own product (and preferable, not in the other's!).

Right on, Diki!

There will always be divisional competition as long as there are divisions...it's a fact of life with Yamaha and other companies.

Ian

------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-25-2007).]

Korg wins in sound editing dept.(also in sequencer dept too).

They have bull blown worstaion sound board with same editing power in ALL arrangers and they have ben consistant.i3 from x 3 to triton to Pa series(munus EFX number in Pa series,but has the same # in previous I series comparing to the workstation of thier time).Not GM/Gs borad and MU boards like previous Rolands or Yams.New Roland and Yams are changing but not yet totally.

The only difference is combi mode,but program and seq modes have the exact same power like a workstation.

But OS,fills ...Hmm that's different story.

Re: santantoni on the views some people have that playing an arranger keyboard is cheating.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Partial quote: "ah, if you have an arranger you are cheating"

Yes, some people really do think (and say) this.
When I first moved from Piano & Organ onto Arranger keyboards, my own mother said to me "But that's cheating a bit isn't it".
As she is a big fan of Richard Clayderman, I said "Clayderman is only playing the piano. He's not playing the drums, oboe & strings etc. "In the same way, this rhythm unit is my orchestra and it is playing what I tell it to by the chords I choose and the arrangements I have set up, so I am the arranger & conductor besides playing the main solo instrument. I'm sure you wouldn't accuse Clayderman of cheating because he personally, is not playing every sound you hear".

To quote Santantoni again:
--------------------------
"I just wrote to Roland (I mention Roland,but also the same applies to Yamaha,Ketron,GEM,etc) to ask them if they would ever make a desktop version of the E-50 or even the E-80,that would allow one to spend about � 500 for an excellent desktop arranger (well,the E-50 can be bought for about � 600), rack up a quality controller keyboard of one's own preference, with semi-weighted or weighted keys (the latter can be found even for � 220 from Fatar...far superior than the keys on even the best arranger keyboards,too plasticky for what they cost),and have a top-notch setup for about than � 800-1000.
Yet,an E-80 costs about � 1500-1800 new,or more (don't know the exact price)".

I couldn't agree more with his statement. I for one, would buy this arranger module the moment it arrived on the market. You can add a whole new dimension to your playing if you can mix and match sounds & styles from 2 or even 3 different keyboards but who wants to carry 2 or 3 keyboards around with the ever increasing weight of each new model.

Why argue whether Tyros 2 or E80, for instance, is the better keyboard - if you could buy them in module form, you could have both. Arranger modules are the best idea since sliced bread and I hope & pray that the big companies are not going to leave this hole in the market for much longer. Please let's have a module from all the top manufacturers - preferably developed from the flagship keyboards.
Best wishes, Tony from Sheffield

Arranger Modules peaked in the 80's...
I doubt you'll see these anytime soon...maybe in a software version...
Years ago arranger styles & sounds were some what proprietary & exclusive to a certain KB unlike todays where you can mix & match styles form other manufacturers easily using various programs & methods which in turn reduces greatly the need for modules...

Dnj
Member posted 01-24-2007 04:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arranger Modules peaked in the 80's...
I doubt you'll see these anytime soon...maybe in a software version...
Years ago arranger styles & sounds were some what proprietary & exclusive to a certain KB unlike todays where you can mix & match styles form other manufacturers easily using various programs & methods which in turn reduces greatly the need for modules...

I see where you're coming from Dnj, but software versions are no good unless you carry a laptop around (which most players don't) and also, styles always sound best on the keyboard they originated from. More importantly, we want the sounds too.
Best wishes, Tony from Sheffield.

I hear ya Anthony....
I guess we wait & see eh?
BTW most OMB players around here all use a Laptops on stage...its a super versatile necessity for our kind of dance gigs.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-24-2007).]

Re: Anthony Jonsohn on arranger desktop modules and preconceived ideas about arranger keyboards.

I really hope that the big companies start making those desktop arrangers too. It's incredible how even a company like Yamaha,still features in it's catalogue and brochures the QY700 in it's original form.
I mean,it's a great,full-featured sequencer (as far as editing functions etc). But it's unbelievable...it's the ONLY pro desktop arranger module that they made since 1996! How about an updated version, at LEAST? Replace the dumb floppy drive with an SD drive,re-vamp the outdated XG module with sounds off your flagship arranger workstations,update it's software etc...
In fact,how about a few new models??

I went to try the Roland E-50...in terms of price might be 'mid-market' or whatever,but to me it looks like a bargain at � 588! (and so are the keyboards in the same price category by Technics and Yamahas...8 years ago they would have been unbelievable). A desktop arranger version of something like the E-80 would be a killer buy for about � 700-800...they should do them in a price category just like their keyboards.

Then with even a M-audio Keystation 61,(five octaves,semi-weighted master controller,weights only 6 kg,costs about � 100),one could carry a flagship E-80 around with ease!
I am an user with a laptop and Band in a Box and OMB, (and a choice,although small, of great sounds) but still,I would gladly buy a modern hardware arranger,for the most direct approach to composition...a laptop PC requires careful setup etc,and sometimes it gets in the way of the music (that's why I bought the QY700 a few weeks ago).

But going back with the prejudice about arrangers...prejudice it's all it is. I think that one should still learn harmony or technique or whatever,but what's different about a pro with an arranger keyboard and a pro with a Korg Triton? If they both have skills,then whether or not they have backing tracks at a push of a button,makes no difference.
And really,I would prefer a G-70 to a Korg Triton any day!

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

Wow Dikki. It never occured to me that the divisions in Yamaha might be putting out false information out there deliberately to protect their divisions sales. Thats crimminal. I am seriously considering copying the above email qoutes to higher up in Yamaha. But perhaps they wont even care...so long as units are being bought even if they are being bought inappropriately.....

Several years ago, I started using a 2nd keyboard either on my right hand or on a rack over my Solton (ssometimes both). The few questions I got about the automatic function went awasy, since I use both keys on every tune, so it's obvious that at least part of the music is being played in real time.


Works for me.

Russ

Some more arranger ignorance from Yamaha employees. I wont bore you with all of it. Some guy who has some experience of keyboards wants to know which is better for him , the XS or the T2 . He gets all the usual BS from Yamaha about the T2 being only suited to the OMB, wedding playing home pop star wanna be (i'm condensing the theme of Yamaha's reply ) and pro gigging musicians using the motif ES for full musical production Blah Blah Blah.

Heres my response (which might also bore you !)

"Re: Compare T1, T2 and XS....Help Yamaha, Please!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...which keyboard would I turn on?... the Tyros 2. Why? because it is loaded with 400 Styles (coherently put together backing specifically designed to perform those music genres) - I would sound great immediately... and could do the project quickly and efficiently. Plus my chops on Broadway style music is sadly lacking... not my forte at all.

Now say I need to put together a professional sounding piece of music - a commissioned project - and say the job required an original R&B Song - which one would I turn on... the Motif XS. Why? because for me R&B songs are a comfort zone, I don't need to rely as much on the source material. I most likely would write the whole thing myself. (Been here, done this and actually have the official R&B Song Writer T-shirt"

My response


"Dash all i can say is that the differences that are being overplayed between the T2 and XS is simply the depth of the editing which 90% of the market that purcahsed the MOTIF ES DONT USE. EG if you chose a guitar patch to edit i asume its because you wanted the final sound to sound similar to a guitar but just a personalised one ! The T2 can take that guitar sound and completely tear it apart if you want to but you sound like a sensible musician and not a sound engineer geek ! I suspect most musicians dont do any indepth sound editing whatsoever on their motif ES or will on the xs but BOTH I AM SURE WILL BE BOUGHT NEVER THE LESS.Why ????? Simply because of the marketing. The ES XS is cool right because pro's use them an you never see a T2 or any arranger on TV right ?

In the examples given above the T2 would be more suitable than the XS IN probably BOTH CASES. The T2 has the most realistic sounds within it than any other yamaha instrument including the mo ES ( havent heard the XS in person) but i suspect that too as it does not have SA voices .

If i were a song writer i want a tool that can inspire and help me get the job done quickly and efficiently. For example lets say i have been commissioned to do an R&B song. Do i want to spend hours editing the instrumet to get great brass sounds, brass stabs , falls, scorching rhythm guitars , organs, kickass drums,searing synthleads or do i actually want to write a song in the quickest time using the most efficient tool ?

The T2 has them all there done and sounding fantastic and if you want to personalise the sound you can dig into the sound synthesis. Yes its true you cant take horns and turn them into weird sounding guitars but why the hell would you ? ???

Most R&B music is composed of a good hook bass line and a great percusion/drum pattern. You can use the preset patterns on the T2 simply as a scratch pad and can instantly change th patterns and chords at any time. Why is this better than a traditional workstion and in this example better for a song writer ? Because you can experiment with musical ideas quickly and easily without extensive programming and lost time fiddling with setups, effects etc. Once you have decided upon your finished idea you can the use the sequencer in linear form. i mean programme each track playing the bass live using your own individual playing skills (not the preprogramed patterns of the arranger) your own drumming patterns , in short play everything yourself . The T2 helps you sort out the ideas and chord structure quickly so that you dont spend hours programming those ideas from scratch , rubbing them out and stating again !!! Is this a great idea for a song writer ??? yessssssssss !!!!!

Watch the XS demo's by athan and Bert.Their demonstrations focus almost entirely on this feature alone !!!! Why ?? Because finally yamaha have realised that ease of song writing and playing is MORE IMPORTANT than sound editing and they are very much aware that the market is looking hard at the T2 as an alternative workstation /song writing tool. You have heard the T2 demos and thats a compelling reason why.

Its an amazing creativve song writing and produton tool. Its a shame that you dont have one to hand to actually play and tinker with. You would see that much of what you hear from people who dont use an arranger in this way is inaccurate not deliberately so but because they simply have not experimented with an aranger as a song writing tool,

Heres my genuine advise after reading all the nonsense marketing BS both here on the forum and in the literature.If you are into making your own sounds extensively, exprimenting with filters, oscillators, LFOs and effects, making sounds that have never been heard before and might not never be used in a performance etc just because its interesting and fun to you then the motif series truly excells in this and the manual is writen for tekkies like you. If you are into playing, writing and producing professional sounding music easily with world class professionally edited sounds at your finger tips then you will not struggle at all with the T2 and you will be surprised at the music it inspires you to write.

best of luck mate ! "

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-26-2007).]

My last post on the subject i promise !

another musician who uses the motif ES and would like to know if the T2 has similar features ...

"I must say, I'd never use the T2 on a rock band stage.

1. 61 key...that alone kills it if any piano is required. Even when I'm just doing right hand fills, shifting my brain to playing on a 61 or 76 keyboard just doesn't work. I can't explain it. Plus the image of playing a midget piano just doesn't look good.

2. If it doesn't have something like Performance mode...kills it there too. I'm surprised how much I use Perf mode. Always thought I'd just use favorite Voices, but as I got more experienced Voice mode was just too limited. I learned from listening to Rudess that keyboardists run the whole show. Perf mode is essential. Now, he's one of the few out there that actually needs the full synth/voice programming as well, but as has been stated, I think that's less than 10% of performers.

3. Cool factor. There's always somebody between sets (sound guys, venue employees, other bands) like "duuude, MOTIF, sweet bro, wanna smoke?" It's sort of like the effect of a real B3 on stage. It just gets the people who know what it is excited, they think they're watching or working with an insider, a pro, which in turn feeds the artist. And yep, this is just a result of good marketing...well done Yamaha.

All that said, as Bad M states, the T2 is more expensive than even the soon to be XS so it's not like Yamaha is fooling the masses by getting them to buy Motifs...would be in their interest to fool them the other way around if the only factor was margin/unit."

My response

"The T2 only has 61 keys thats true. It might not look cool to you but its sounds waaaaayyyyyyyyy cool !

Finally does it have Performance mode ???

Certainly it does !!!! But Yamaha call it Registration Memory Banks where you can save your keyboard set ups, layered sounds, dsp effects , transposition keys and a host of other parameters at the touch of a button ! Going from memory there are 8 dedicated Registration buttons each able to hold 8 separate combinations of setups. thats 64 different performance setups. at your fingertips. (oh and buy the way the whole concept of performance mode was borowed from the arranger family of keyboards.My yamaha PSR 8000 had registration banks as long as 8 years ago, its nice to see the big boys like the motif catch up and sell this as a new technique!)

Listen I have preached enough. This is he kind of info that Yamaha ought to be giving to musicians and contrary to popular belief I dont work for Yamaha "

I am done

Spalding keep in mind the difference between the Performance mode on the synths, and the registration set ups on arrangers.

Synths have (16) part Peformaces at your finger tips. With the XS for example all 16 parts will be available at a button push where as with the arranger you'll have to go though banks as there is only a few slots within each bank.

There are work-arounds on arrangers though. You could create a seq template really on the PSR's and set up 16 part performances that way. You can save multiple seq temps to the song memory, and those parts will be available on demand as you can use the softkeys to access each part on the fly.

Thanks Squeak. You are right. I was just trying to illustrate that what workstation musiicians have , aranger musicians have similar but not necessarily exact but i take your point !

You also tend to find that workstations have far better master keyboard capabilities than arrangers, something that is of great concern to gigging pros (remember, most of them are using them with full bands, so there is less need to have an automatic rhythm section).

Most of them will have at least a couple of keyboards, and a rack of outboard synths and samplers, and keeping that all under control is important. Don't get me wrong, the top-of-the-line arrangers are OK in this department, but just OK.... none of them approach the flexibility of a Kurzweil or MotifXS

There IS an important difference between arranger and workstation, but the trouble is far too many people choose the workstation when the REALLY need an arranger. It is time that the arranger divisions of each corporation do a better job of addressing the needs of players that need arranger AND workstation capabilities in one keyboard, and I believe that adding workstation capabilities to an arranger (master keyboard functions, in-depth editing) would be FAR easier than adding arranger capabilities to a workstation.....

Wow ...... and you want to impress THESE people?