The point I am making Don and Squeak is that the ignorance of arranger Keyboard capabilities goes right the way back up to the manufacturer themselves . They are so intent on selling styles and the immediate useability of arrangers that they have completely missed the rest of the market that want a flexible instrument even though arrangers are incredibly flexible ! The workstation users are loving the arranger features on the XS and Bert is singing its praises like its cutting edge technology never seen on a workstation before when in fact it is very well established old technology on their existing workstaion ! But the purchasers of "high end workstations " and the demonstrators are completely ignorant of perhaps more suitable instruments like an arranger. Go on the Motifator Forum and you will see how many users dont know the first thing about this "highend Workstation " that they have just purchased.

Its not just the Arranger owners that dont delve into their instrument manuals.

For many musicians, they have purchased the absolutely wrong type of instrument because of ignorance and marketing hype. Perhaps Martin Harris (The main Tyros Developer) Ought to spend more timein the sales department demonstrating some of Tyros's other features rather than just styles . Or get Bert to demo the Tyros.. The sales of the T2 wouldshoot up !

Spalding..... you don't honestly think that a product specialist or developer from Yamaha's workstation division is going to tout and promote technology from a competing division over his own.....?

The nature of corporate politics and finance (the more YOU sell, the bigger your R&D and promotional budgets) will always lead to an avowed ignorance about the capabilities of your competition (although I am certain they are more aware than they let on).

Unless the arbitrary differences between 'home' and 'professional" keyboards are removed at the corporate level, each one will continue to compete, rather than complement, with the other.

We ARE beginning to see the beginnings of the merging of the two technologies, but don't expect to see both sides jumping on the bandwagon while each side of this internecine fight figure out that the 'other side' has got technology and functions that they would like to see included in their own product (and preferable, not in the other's!).

Right on, Diki!

There will always be divisional competition as long as there are divisions...it's a fact of life with Yamaha and other companies.

Ian

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Remember to leave good news alone.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-25-2007).]

Korg wins in sound editing dept.(also in sequencer dept too).

They have bull blown worstaion sound board with same editing power in ALL arrangers and they have ben consistant.i3 from x 3 to triton to Pa series(munus EFX number in Pa series,but has the same # in previous I series comparing to the workstation of thier time).Not GM/Gs borad and MU boards like previous Rolands or Yams.New Roland and Yams are changing but not yet totally.

The only difference is combi mode,but program and seq modes have the exact same power like a workstation.

But OS,fills ...Hmm that's different story.

Re: santantoni on the views some people have that playing an arranger keyboard is cheating.
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Partial quote: "ah, if you have an arranger you are cheating"

Yes, some people really do think (and say) this.
When I first moved from Piano & Organ onto Arranger keyboards, my own mother said to me "But that's cheating a bit isn't it".
As she is a big fan of Richard Clayderman, I said "Clayderman is only playing the piano. He's not playing the drums, oboe & strings etc. "In the same way, this rhythm unit is my orchestra and it is playing what I tell it to by the chords I choose and the arrangements I have set up, so I am the arranger & conductor besides playing the main solo instrument. I'm sure you wouldn't accuse Clayderman of cheating because he personally, is not playing every sound you hear".

To quote Santantoni again:
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"I just wrote to Roland (I mention Roland,but also the same applies to Yamaha,Ketron,GEM,etc) to ask them if they would ever make a desktop version of the E-50 or even the E-80,that would allow one to spend about £ 500 for an excellent desktop arranger (well,the E-50 can be bought for about £ 600), rack up a quality controller keyboard of one's own preference, with semi-weighted or weighted keys (the latter can be found even for £ 220 from Fatar...far superior than the keys on even the best arranger keyboards,too plasticky for what they cost),and have a top-notch setup for about than £ 800-1000.
Yet,an E-80 costs about £ 1500-1800 new,or more (don't know the exact price)".

I couldn't agree more with his statement. I for one, would buy this arranger module the moment it arrived on the market. You can add a whole new dimension to your playing if you can mix and match sounds & styles from 2 or even 3 different keyboards but who wants to carry 2 or 3 keyboards around with the ever increasing weight of each new model.

Why argue whether Tyros 2 or E80, for instance, is the better keyboard - if you could buy them in module form, you could have both. Arranger modules are the best idea since sliced bread and I hope & pray that the big companies are not going to leave this hole in the market for much longer. Please let's have a module from all the top manufacturers - preferably developed from the flagship keyboards.
Best wishes, Tony from Sheffield

Arranger Modules peaked in the 80's...
I doubt you'll see these anytime soon...maybe in a software version...
Years ago arranger styles & sounds were some what proprietary & exclusive to a certain KB unlike todays where you can mix & match styles form other manufacturers easily using various programs & methods which in turn reduces greatly the need for modules...

Dnj
Member posted 01-24-2007 04:30 PM
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Arranger Modules peaked in the 80's...
I doubt you'll see these anytime soon...maybe in a software version...
Years ago arranger styles & sounds were some what proprietary & exclusive to a certain KB unlike todays where you can mix & match styles form other manufacturers easily using various programs & methods which in turn reduces greatly the need for modules...

I see where you're coming from Dnj, but software versions are no good unless you carry a laptop around (which most players don't) and also, styles always sound best on the keyboard they originated from. More importantly, we want the sounds too.
Best wishes, Tony from Sheffield.

I hear ya Anthony....
I guess we wait & see eh?
BTW most OMB players around here all use a Laptops on stage...its a super versatile necessity for our kind of dance gigs.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-24-2007).]

Re: Anthony Jonsohn on arranger desktop modules and preconceived ideas about arranger keyboards.

I really hope that the big companies start making those desktop arrangers too. It's incredible how even a company like Yamaha,still features in it's catalogue and brochures the QY700 in it's original form.
I mean,it's a great,full-featured sequencer (as far as editing functions etc). But it's unbelievable...it's the ONLY pro desktop arranger module that they made since 1996! How about an updated version, at LEAST? Replace the dumb floppy drive with an SD drive,re-vamp the outdated XG module with sounds off your flagship arranger workstations,update it's software etc...
In fact,how about a few new models??

I went to try the Roland E-50...in terms of price might be 'mid-market' or whatever,but to me it looks like a bargain at £ 588! (and so are the keyboards in the same price category by Technics and Yamahas...8 years ago they would have been unbelievable). A desktop arranger version of something like the E-80 would be a killer buy for about £ 700-800...they should do them in a price category just like their keyboards.

Then with even a M-audio Keystation 61,(five octaves,semi-weighted master controller,weights only 6 kg,costs about £ 100),one could carry a flagship E-80 around with ease!
I am an user with a laptop and Band in a Box and OMB, (and a choice,although small, of great sounds) but still,I would gladly buy a modern hardware arranger,for the most direct approach to composition...a laptop PC requires careful setup etc,and sometimes it gets in the way of the music (that's why I bought the QY700 a few weeks ago).

But going back with the prejudice about arrangers...prejudice it's all it is. I think that one should still learn harmony or technique or whatever,but what's different about a pro with an arranger keyboard and a pro with a Korg Triton? If they both have skills,then whether or not they have backing tracks at a push of a button,makes no difference.
And really,I would prefer a G-70 to a Korg Triton any day!

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

[This message has been edited by santantoni (edited 01-24-2007).]

Wow Dikki. It never occured to me that the divisions in Yamaha might be putting out false information out there deliberately to protect their divisions sales. Thats crimminal. I am seriously considering copying the above email qoutes to higher up in Yamaha. But perhaps they wont even care...so long as units are being bought even if they are being bought inappropriately.....