Anyone notice how those 2 & 3 ads that appear 'at the top' of our "General Arranger Keyboard Forum" page have recently nearly ALL been heavily pushing sales of the Yamaha Tyros. I suspect that dealers are now desperately attempting to CLEAR out their remaining stock BEFORE Tyros2 hits.

On ANOTHER note, here's an interesting statistic I learned from a Yamaha keyboard representative I spoke with recently. 95% of all mid to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboard sales are to Germany & Europe. with the USA accounting for 'less than' 5% of the market. Subsequently, arranger sounds, styles, and features, are all specifically designed to appeal to German & European musical tastes & desires. Arranger kb manufacterers have yet to figure out how to attract hi-end arranger kb appeal to the US market.

Scott

Wow, that's an amazing surprise. I had no idea. Good gracious, only 5% in USA? Maybe in, say, five years from now, with more OMB out there, it will be different.


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Hi Scott,

This is true. Europe has a much larger market when it comes to OMB musicians than the US.

When the new Genesys Pro S O/S was in the final stages of completion, we [GEM USA] said that many of the sounds and styles were just not right for the US market. The advantage of having everything, i.e. operating system as well as wavetables, styles, etc. in flash is that with a single CD the entire instrument can be changed from the ground up to present properly to any given market. The result is the Genesys series instruments in the US have a separate O/S including some different sounds and styles as those prepared for the European market.

Best Regards,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Bill, another interesting point: following Tyros 1's initial release, many USA dealers were having to return their unsold Tyros inventory, while German dealers weren't able to keep enough of them in stock to meet consumer demand.

US consumer appeal for arranger keyboards still remains low in spite of recent efforts by arranger manufacterers & US keyboard magazine reviews & ad exposure to promote them here. The key is figuring out what it is about high end arrangers that isn't appealing to US musicians. Is it their high price, embarassment of playing along to auto-accompaniment loops, or simply their past reputation as toys for people who can't really play? Whatever the reason, I think professional OMB arranger musician-entertainment is far less accepted and respected here than in Germany. Then again, Schlager music's more popular in Germany too.

Scott

I do think that the market size in the US and in the world generally, is the reason why arranger manufacturers are reluctant to release more than one version of an arranger.

IE Yamaha not making a 76 key Tyros or Roland not making a 61 key G70.

I guess they are thinking that persons who like the respective arranger version for the sounds and styles would buy it whether it is 61 or 76 keys. And those who would not buy it because of the keys are just too few in order for the manufactures to make a profit from making a different size version of the same arranger.

I think arrangers have such a small part in the US keyboard market because of the stigma of it being for home players and not for professionals. That seems to be reducing as arrangers continue to have very good sounds and unique features and as people begin to use arrangers more in public. It always use to amaze me when people use to, because of styles, laugh at arranger players as being amateur and lovers of a quick fix approach to music. When arrangers are perhaps the most versatile keyboards as you can perform as a one man ban, perform with a band and do studio work all with one arranger. The styles that come with the keyboards are only suggestions. The trick to making an arranger really outstanding is to create your own styles or modify existing styles. No different really from what you do with an appeggiator on a workstation.


Another reason why arrangers are not too popular in the US is the price. They are way way too expensive. But that is because of the small market they have.

I still feel that if arranger manufactures want to make some inroads in to the keyboard market, making an arranger module is the way to go.

It would give existing keyboard owners a chance to use an arranger at a reasonable and affordable price.

Also, you can build brand loyalty so the next arranger you make such a person would have been exposed to arranger features for that brand and would be a stronger candidate for buying a full arranger.
For example, I had a friend who had a Korg Triton classic. When the Motif came out he was reluctant to getting another keyboard from another manufacturer. So what he did was he got a motif rac module. He liked the sounds of the Motif rac so much that when the Motif es came out he kept the Triton classic and sold the Motif rac and got the Motif ES 7 and is a very happy person now. Well musically at least.

Fascinating!! What makes us as Americans so different from our European counterparts?

Let's look at a few shall we? Okay, I may be off here but one thing to consider is America has been entrenched in the idea of the traditional Workstation concept i.e. anything other than an Arranger. All of the Bands here use Workstations, even your so called Garage Bands. And that concept has been ingrained in our society (and musicians in particular ) from the inception of Keyboard technology here in the States. Rick Wakeman of the group Yes was one of the first big names to use a Keyboard in a live setting. Before that it was usually an Upright or real Grand Piano that was used during a performance. And Arrangers were no where to be found because there was no such thing as an high end Arranger back then just Stage Pianos and Workstations basically. Arrangers came on the scene much later.

To change people's mind set and open them up to a new concept in Keyboard technology and music making is rather difficult evidenced by the fact that the manufacturers can't figure out how to sell mid and high end Arrangers here in the States. The musicians say we have something that works so if it ain't broke why fix it? And besides Arrangers have been marketed for the most part as Toys sold in department stores for children so musicians don't know any different in my opinion.

BUT the concept is slowly changing in my opinion. As word gets out that there are Arrangers out there that aren't toys and have the quality of sounds comparable to the top end Workstations and are extremely useful to musician's music making ability, then the idea of an high end Arranger on his or her short list will be more readily embraced. But to do that in my opinion the manufacturers need to change their marketing strategy. Market the mid and high end Arrangers more as "Tools Of The Trade" for Musicians instead of "Be Your Own Band!"

An Arranger can be an awesome tool in the music making process for musicians. From scratch pad, to getting ideas for songs, to making whole arrangements in a relatively short amount of time can be a real boon to gigging musicians. And they will be willing to pay the price if the quality and features are up to snuff. But so little is known about Arrangers in the Music World (except the concept to them as toys sold in department stores ), that they don't know any different.

They've GOT to realize and understand the invaluable resource an high end Arranger can be to them in the music making process. When that dawns on them - THEN they will change their view of what an Arranger really is and how extremely useful it can be in the process of making music and song making.

Apparently Europeans have not been as ingrained in the concept of using only Workstations and Digital Pianos for their music making needs; and possibly that the toy Arrangers aren't sold to the degree that they are in the States thus the idea of Arrangers as only toys sold to children doesn't apply to them. They don't have that "toy" mentality when it comes to what an Arranger really is and can be.

Also, the idea of sounding like a Band and making beautiful music can be very soothing and uplifting on those coooollllddddd winter days and nights. And when you think about it their winters last up to six months in some locations, so there are millions of people with little else to do when the snow is half way up the side of their houses during the winter and outdoor recreational activities are substantially hindered as a result. And Europeans LOVE music, so mid and high end Arrangers fly off the shelves so they can have a hobby and do what they love, i.e. make music and sound like a live Band during those times, or any other time for that matter.

There are other reasons of course but I think the main reason is, as I stated previously; when Americans find something that works for them and they don't know or understand the alternatives at their disposal i.e. "high end Arrangers and the gold mine that can be attained in using them in the music making process", and also having the concept in their minds that they are toys sold in department stores for children - then can you blame them??? Can you blame them for shunning Arrangers even though they are considered High End???

Manufacturers have to change that concept in their minds before Arrangers will be accepted to the degree that traditional Workstations or Digital Pianos are now in my opinion.

Hold Symposiums here in the U.S. like they do in Europe. Fly Michel Voncken over here and let him do a 50 city tour promoting the Tyros 2. Send flyers to all Music Retailers in the cities that are included in the tour, including all Guitar Center outlets. Make the admission free and add other enticing benefits such as hands on workshops, special pricing for pre-sale orders and or multiple order items above a certain dollar amount. Don't limit the stay to one day per city. Make it a e.g. 3 day stay in each, etc.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Why do I waste my breath? Who's listening anyway? Steve seems to have flew the coop and I don't think any other Yammie employee frequents this site anymore. In fact I believe Yammie is changing their strategy concerning Keyboard or other type of Music Forums. They are concentrating on Forums that are their own such as Arrangerworkstation.com and Keyfax.com and are shying away from others not "endorsed" by them. Steve Deming has been silent (hopefully he still reads the posts though). Mike Martin who used to post regularly over at Musicplayer.com has been silent recently. Yammie even up and moved him back east to Chicago because in my opinion they wanted him 'dis-connected' from that site and from participating in it... out of sight out of mind type of thing. Instead Yamaha in my opinion is trying to take a back seat to the goings on at other Music Forums not endorsed and owned by them. We will see if my take on the situation stands up to scrutiny.

sigh... The other manufacturers are more than willing to answer questions and participate in various music Forums.

You know what they say though don't you? "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". Apparently Yamaha can't stand the heat.

Note: These are expressely my opinions based on my observations and are not necessarily fact. As Fox news says: "We report - You decide".


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 08-27-2005).]

Yep, Yamaha hasn't done much to keep me as a loyal customer. After my episode with my first PSR2000 and it's major OS problems and painfully slow response from Yamaha, and the experience of seeing some of the Yamaha software products I had purchased become abandonware ( XG works, SYXG100 ), I really wanted to swear off their products.

Unfortunately, when I was looking for a workstation, the Triton Studio didn't quite do it for me, and the Fantom X hadn't been released yet ( I think maybe the S seies was out at the time ). Sooo, I got the Motif ES... and I'm still very happy with it.

Of course, nothing has changed. Yamaha gave us hope of new plug in modules and other great aftermarket products for the Motif series in the works way back when on Motifator, and very little has happened there.

Someday I'll replace or complement my PA80 with a second arranger for live play.... unfortunately, it won't be with the pricy PA1x, and since I'll likely never see a Ketron, Gem, or even Roland board to demo anywhere within a reasonable distance, and I won't buy without trying ... I'll likely have to go the Yamaha route again.... sigh

AJ

#1-I feel that many keyboards are being used as karaoake players, where keyboards like KN7000 and Tyros are not really needed. My personal observation this past week was to see a Kn7000 played beautiful for a short period, then singing with midi files captured the rest of the night. I am now doing both, no objecting against midi files,but I see the market moving away. Is this happening overseas too?

#2-What do they put into the keyboards that go to other countries? Different styles? Different sounds? How do they differ?

IMHO, John C.

I disagree that the price is to high for the US market. A Hammond xk3/b3 setup is over $7500.00 plus another $2500.00 for the 122.

I believe that Yamaha has done a real diservice to the arranger market by representing Tyros as a professional "flagship" arranger keyboard. Each of those terms conotate or imply specific things, none of which with the exception of the Tyros panel voices, my Tyros is.

If it were truly what they say it is, I believe many more professional musicians would have one. The limitaions imposed by Tyros midi impementation, external voice data recall, totally inadequate sequencer, woefully inadequate audio outs/digital outs and toy undersized keybed are just a few of the things that come to mind off the top of my head. I hesitate to mention the on board harmonizer that was found to be faulty by "3" people around the world (as stated by a high level Yamaha rep on a forum).

It did not take me but just a very little while to realize that I was misled by the "flagship" and professional hype.

If Yamaha needed to charge $5000.00, $7000.00 or more, it would not and should not matter. I believe this would be of no consequence to a professional musician seeking or requiring the highest grade instument or tool. Especially coming from a company of Yamaha's(in my mind previous) stature or staus. I really don't know about you guys, but I paid $3500.00 for my used B3 way back in 1974 and $900.00 for the Leslie. $1000.00 for the Clavinet in 74 and I forget how much for the used Rhodes. Back in those days I was making a whole $25.00 a night. People need to get real regarding prices for "PROFESSIONAL INSTRUMENTS.

Yamaha has totally just muddied the waters with Tyros. A wedge has been driven between many buyers that fully expected it to be what they (Yamaha) said it was and many that feel it is. Yes, for sure the home entertainers love it probably because most are totally unaware of many of the higher level technical limitations, and, some giging musicians have discovered some of them (discrepancies) but stuck it out and learned to accept many of Tyros shortcomings. Some have tried real hard to use it as a studio tool and have had too look elsewhere. I don't need a sales person or some company technical rep to tell me how good it is after I have already bought it. I am a freakin musician that has spent a lifetime doing technical things. I sure as heck don't need Michael Vocken to demonstrate it. I'll spend weeks alone with it and figure out for myself whether it is up to snuff. I for one am sick and tired of all the defense of Tyros by it's loyal "users". IMO Yamaha has disappeared because Tyros is history.

Without doubt the live music scene changed completely in the US in the late 80s', mainly in my opinon, because of mothers against drunk driving and the laws they helped enact, cops sitting down the street form bars waiting for them to close and late night road blocks. The public became terrified about driving after even a few drinks. Bars could know longer afford to bring in popular local bands. Todays kids are out there playing their music for pass the hat because they don't know any better or have never known any different. Well the hell with that. It should be no problem at all for a good solo entertainer to earn 200 to 300 per night, which is much less than the 400 to 1000 that bands in my the Virginia Beach area area need. Besides, solo entertainers hold and involve the crowd much more than many (part time)bands, at least that is my experience, having seen it from both sides. And I have not even mentioned the home studio explosion with tens of thousands working alone in their studio.

I really believe that if if some company really were to build a truly "Professional" "ARRANGERS" KEYBOARD; selling them to Musicians in the US would be the least of their problems.

Danny




[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-27-2005).]

Danny, you're right. I've bought B-3's, Suitcase Rhodes...many $5,000 plus guitars. When you make a respectible living, you just need to lay out the cash to get professional equipment. My problem with Yamaha is that
the ones I tried (owned a PSR 3000 for a week-tried a Tyros-didn't like it)all seemed like home quality "toylike" devices.

I believe that Yamaha goes for volume and intentionally uses less than quality components...fine for the home market but short of what I require.

I'm very glad that many are satisfied with the Tyros and 3000...it's just not for me.

Ketron comes as close as I can find in the areas of build quality and professional sounds. I would prefer a kick ass bass player and drummer, but, sadly, in this area at least, if you want to work 4 plus nights a week for a decent wage, that's almost impossible.

Russ