Talk about overkill. I just bought a new computer; not because I really needed one, I just thought it might be nice to have something that would boot Windoze before I fell asleep and crashed my face into the keyboard. I opted for a nice new Gateway with one of the new Core 2 Duo (E6600) and a lot of other fancy stuff. Very fast, and it did boot Windows at an acceptable rate of speed; but here's the thing....

It came with a 500G disk drive. It also has a 120G portable media drive. I guess that would be so I can share stuff with my friends who also have a Gateway with a portable media drive (that would be none, as in 0). Plus, when my son saw it, he decided I should definitely have a backup drive and immediately supprised me with a 500G external firewire drive. I now have 1.12 TERABYTES of hard disk storage. So.....

Out of curiousity, I checked the drive capacity and usage of my trusty 5 yr old studio computer and learned that it was 80G and (after five years) had 65% free space. This includes photos of the grandkids, a couple of backups from my HD recorder, assorted music software, old tax records, a Fran Carrango mp3, and other useless and long forgotten stuff.

So the question is, what the heck do I do with 1 Terabyte of HD space. I guess I could try to store a picture of Fran's butt, or Donny's ego, or Diki's knowledge base.....nah, I'd need more storage than that.

Any (clean) suggestions.

chas

Whoops, almost forgot these.

It's time for your wife to take the check book away from you...You are now senile..

You're probably right, Fran...although I'd probably have felt better if you'd added a couple of those smiley faces.

chas

Curious as to why you didn�t use the Hibernate function on your old computer which saves an image of the ram, and which just takes a few seconds (Depends on the size of Ram) to load back in. (I suspect it was more then boot time that caused you to get another computer)
BTW Its not just size you get with a larger hard disc, but faster access and data transfer.
Also 1.12 Tb seems a bit small in this day an age

Bill

[img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

I forgot in my old age [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

I just got to see a picture of Fran for the first time a day or two ago.
I was amazed!
He looks just like Deano Martin when we was sober
Good looking fellow though
Bebop

Bebop, might be time to check that eyeglass prescription .

chas

1 Terabyte of HD space...........


Doesnt even come close to storing my EGO

It'll fit my knowledge base if you zip it first...

I suggest you take a serious look at some of the new soft synths and keyboards. That machine will run just about as many voices as you can possible play. Check out the demos for Ivory (for killer grand pianos), BFD for drums, GIGA Scarbee for basses (and many other things), StylusRMX for loops, Garritan Personal Orchestra (for, well, you guessed it!) if you can't afford the VSL library.

Many of these wonderful sample libraries are 30GB or more. You can fill up a HD quick like that...!

Diki, as usual you're very correct in that soft synths and samplers, along with software DAWS, are probably the best use of a high-end computer in a music environment. Truth is, I've done a fair amount of experimenting with soft synths and have quite a few freebies and cheapies loaded on the old machine. I play around with them occasionally using my A70 controller. I will no doubt slowly migrate over to a "soft" studio in time, as that appears to be the trend in project studios these days. However, there are several problems with this FOR ME.

1. I always have and probably always will, prefer hardware to software, no matter how good-sounding the software. Probably the engineer in me.

2. The quality libraries are very, very expensive and hard to justify outside of a commercial environment (not that musicians need to justify half of the crap they buy).

3. Only about half of the most popular software is "Vista" ready, although I'm sure this is just a temporary situation.

4. The older I get, the less inclined I am to deal with the complications and frustrations of software installation and implementation. That's one of the reasons that I continue to use a standalone recorder (Akai DPS24) instead of a computer DAW for recording.

Oh well, I'll think of something. I guess I could try to store a copy of Capt. Russ' equipment list; or better yet, a copy of each of Diki's posts in which a chord sequencer is mentioned. That should fill it up .

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 06-30-2007).]

1.2TB is not a lot these days if your into the likes of GIGA Libraries.

Take VSL for example, the complete library won't even fit on the internal hard disk.

One computer won't even run it right.
The bigger they make them, the faster they will be filled.

Regards.
James.

James, you have just summed up (brilliantly and concisely) the reasons for my reluctance to go the software route. BTW, thanks much for all the many super contributions over on the Korg boards.

chas

In all honest who the heck needs all these sounds ???

Probably the same kind of guy that would sell a PSR3K and get a Ketron... In other words, anyone who is looking for a better sound and functionality..!

Yes, of course, if you are not doing studio production, or need this for remote operation, rather than at home, it's not practical, but PLENTY of home amateurs AND pros use GIGA sampler and other soft-synths at home, to get a higher level of quality sound than they can get out of most hardware keyboards...

I dont care what you say...smart ass cracks & all...
I still think its overkill.....if you want the real sounds play the real instruments .

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-30-2007).]

I'm sorry. I just love it . I also love "Battle of the Titans", "War of the Worlds", "King Kong vs Godzilla", etc., etc. Keeps the board interesting when there's a lull in the T2 or G70 trashing. One great thing, I know you guys don't hold grudges and realize that it's all good harmless fun mostly motivated by our desire to sometimes actually be a smart ass.

chas

Scott Yee Please come back!!

Dnj, delete all those "fake" voices and those "fake" drum sounds. Now play and blow your audience away with the "the sound of silence".

Taike

Taike

I am kind of wondering when Fran will step in and explain how good the GIGA sounds in his MS are (and probably, Donny has heard them!), and show what kind of person WOULD want 'real' sounds...

And, as someone who just 'stepped up' from a PSR to a Ketron, precisely for the reason that it sounds more 'real', I would have thought Donny would have understood EXACTLY what kind of person would like a better sounding keyboard...

Guess not....

But James uses an extreme example there, chas. GPO even runs in RAM, no need to stream, and definitely blows away ANY hardware keyboard's orchestral sounds. Ivory is amazing, but runs comfortably alongside many other VSTi's. Same with BFD, DFH2, etc., etc..

The answer has been these new Core Duo chips and computers. They are SO much faster than they used to be (and latency is down to 'better than hardware' with the right soundcard) that it might be worth a second look, chas. Things move pretty rapidly in the computer world (unlike the sluggish keyboard industry)...

I guess it boils down to whether you think your current hardware is 'good enough', or you would like to step up to the next level. Technically, it's a LOT easier than it used to be...

(BTW, can you install a WinXP drive on this MOBO setup, and use the non-Vista ready stuff until it is?)

Technically yes, but so far I've read the equivilent of several dissertations on the pros and cons of a dual booting XP and Vista. Then, do you run 32bit or 64; should you run just the one large disk or two in a raid array? Is the firewire fast enough for anything other than backup? Should I upgrade to a quad core? Which, if any, of the software packages can take advantage of (take your pick) Vista, XP64, 64bit vs 32bit, raid, etc. Any free copies of XP pro laying around? Pretty expensive proposition, really, for improvements in sound that may only be immediately apparent to other musicians. Don't forget, sounding like a real violin and playing like one are two different things. Even with great piano samples, very few controllers are going to give you the same kind of tactile feedback as a real piano. As I'm sure Capt. Russ (and other old time B3 players) will tell you, no matter how good the latest, greatest "clonewheel" SOUNDS, it still "ain't no B".

I didn't really buy this computer for this purpose, anyway. I was just trying to future-proof myself for a few months . BUT, since I have all this firepower, I'm sure I will be tempted to try some of the more inexpensive (and exotic) software offerings. I'll probably start with some kind of orchestral bundule once rave reviews and price point coincide on my street corner. Anyway, it downloads porn really fast.
.....kidding, kidding

chas

1- I would say 32 bit. Where are all those 64 bit applications?
2- With the raid configuration you can choose to:
a- use the second disk as an instant back-up of the first one (the system writes automatically all the data on the two disks at the same time) or
b- split the data between the two disks in order to gain speed (the system writes/reads a bit on one disk and the next bit on the second one, thus saving access time: cool, but is the gain in speed worth the while?) On my PC I have two 320 Gb disks running in parallel: this way I will never risk to loose all my data due to a HD crash, like happened in the past
3- Firewire is DAMN fast: try it and see yourself...
4- Upgrading to a Quad Core is not necessary, given your needs; your computer (like mine) will be obsolete in a couple of years, but for now enjoy the ride...

My MS customers can download for free the last Tyros 2 soundbank here: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/giga-t2-p-178.html
and there you can hear some demo mp3 sounds of each sound loaded.

Then maybe in future you can also resolved your all PC problems with this OS version: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/msiso-20-p-179.html

Enjoy what you play.

1. Run a separate disk for all your samples, leaving the main disk for Windows and programs.(Dual booting systems will have no effect on performance)
2. 32 bit will be fine for now
3. Interface speeds; Firewire = 400, USB 2 = 480, Firewire 2 = 800, (Unfortunately not properly supported by Windows, so you may as well stick with standard Firewire) Gigabit Ethernet = 1000
4. Motherboards are also available with an E-SATA socket (External SATA) which will give the same performance as an internal drive
5. Best value Orchestra; Garritan GPO
6. Best GM set; Colossus (But look out for the soon to be released Garritan GM set)
7. You will find that most people who have a Genuine B3 and a computer, use Native Instruments B4 VST (As close as you can get to the real thing, so close in fact that unless you are a aficionado of the B3, you will not be able to tell the difference)
8. As to VST being specialist, this has not been the case since 2000 (Wersi allows you to load and use them in a normal keyboard, with Lionstracs bringing out a new board that can also use them, a few years later)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Hello Lionstracs
Not all your Tyros 2 demo links are working correctly at the moment.
As to the sounds themselves, while the Pianos are passable, I am not overly impressed with the rest. (Most TOTL Hardware boards produce better sounds)
As to Tyros 2 styles, the new ones that were added were special recordings of sounds, and therefore substituting them for other sounds wont work (No matter how good the quality of the sound)
Anyway keep up the good work, as Bohm are now fully back in the market, which means we will probably see something similar from them in the future.(The 70s and 80s produced intense competition between Wersi and Bohm, leaving other manufactures trailing in their wake)
Regards

Bill

Tyros 2 ?.
As you in Sampled the factory sounds off the Yamaha Tyros 2 ?

I hope not since this is highly ILLEGAL. !!!!

James

Hi Lionstracs.

I've just placed a link to this thread from KORG Forums as there are some hardcore sampling gurus there that will be very interested in hearing what you have to say on the copyrights of Yamaha sounds.

This is a subject that we have discussed a million times, and we would be very interested in knowing about any Laws that you believe are on your side in this matter.

From what we have been officially told by KORG and Roland, you would be breaking two copyrights here.

1: The sampling of the actual recorded PCM data.
2: The sampling of the sound designers programming that shaped the sounds.

If you believe otherwise and have found some information surrounding the laws in this area. We would really like to hear about this, as we are split down the middle on this subject too.

Some believe it's legal, and some believe it's illegal. Even though KORG and Roland have officially said it is illegal.

It's just that nobody has been crazy enough to take them on.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=30

Regards.
James.

Hello James
are you maybe scared that the MS is able to play the all sounds and from other brands too?

Before you continue, is better that I explain some points:

1) read WELL again what mean GPL license: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

2) LIONSTRACS do NOT sell officially ANY software and ALL the software developed from our developers and 3th paty developers is ALWAYS offered again BACK under GPL license. Of couse, NOT MS customers if will download this software/library, they have to pay some for support our developers. who will buy our hardware products will receive ALWAYS for FREE any software/library from us developed.

3) read again well in our webpage who have developed this sounds and you can see there too that the all sounds are offered from 3th paty developers and if they like to clone and give us the sounds for FREE, we dont care because is not our falut or legally problems.

3) The new Europen law now allow people to download any type of data, including copyright software and media IF they will use ONLY for personal use without resell it.
If you remember well, you had already fight with another people that had try to resell your developed tyros sounds too, but there was much different, because you already had asking a lot of money for one single sounds and you will have the copyright.

4) Untill LIONSTRACS do NOT resell comercially ANY software like the others company, we can NOT have any legally problems because is NOT our interest to make money with the software BUT ONLY with the hardware.
IF anyone can probe that LIONSTRACS made 1 milion dollars profit with the FREE software offered, MAYBE they can proceed legally, BUT in the reality we DO NOT have any profit with this software and then IF they try to proceed legally, they will lose all before starting.

5) another probe is the EMC style converter: now this software have about 10 years and still the company EMC do NOT get any legally problems. EMC can clone/copy any type of styles from brands to brands.
Why company like GEM, Korg...offer in they web pages the EMC style converter to download too? Is not legally copy/edit the styles??
So.. if they allow to download it and all the others offer the same possibility, it mean that this is legally and personal customers are able to do what all they want, nobody in his privat life/home can do nothing.

6) other web site, like this: http://worrasplace.com/
offer FREE GIGA sounds from many years and why they still do NOT have any legally problems?

7) Wersi with the new OAS7 made about the same, they can play the tyros styles and the sounds too, why they dont have any legally problems?

8) ABACUS wrote that Bhom will return back in the market with about the same features, why they can make this and do not get legally problems??

I can continue for hours in this way but at the end you can do really nothing, because the world now is more open and end user people can do what all they want.
The BIG problems is ONLY that you there are SCARED of the new and BIG Features that only the Mediastation can do, all the other keyboards ( including Korg Oasys ) can ONLY dreaming of this features.

You all there guys can continue fight with the USB 1.0, 2.0.. T3, T4... you know well that all this features and power is possible ONLY by PC system and developing so many open features is possible ONLY by Linux.
Maybe you can do some under Windows OS, like the Openlabs, but just for open VST, still use the finger pad/mouse and Never integrating the application under your hardware.
IF you can do and shown me that you get 2.9ms latency like the MS, then I can belive you there..
Look the new reaper SEQ: http://www.cockos.com/reaper/feat-ss.php
you can see the windows latency..from 10 to 191ms latency...lol

Enjoy what you like to play
cheers

Do you honestly think Roland, Yamaha, Korg or ANY legitimate keyboard manufacturer are going to sit around while Lionstracs condone blatant piracy because they are incapable of developing their own sounds?

The price of development of these sounds is included in the price of the hardware keyboard they reside in, which makes them VERY expensive sounds...! And Lionstracs think they are going to get to use them for free?

I am afraid their attitude (well, WE didn't sample them, we just give them away on our site!) is typical of the fly-by-night practices of much of the pirate industry. And the potential for litigation tying up this small company's capital, and bringing a halt to further R&D (and the absurd promise of free updates forever!) seems high. This is NOT a path any company that expect confidence from it's customers really ought to walk down.

The big three probably spend more on just sound development per year than Lionstracs' entire budget. And apparently Lionstracs think that unless they pirate these sounds (or condone and facilitate it), they cannot do business (or else, why are they going here?)...

This is not the business model to inspire confidence (one good lawsuit will shut them down), and if is the ethics of this company, well, 'free updates forever' sounds more and more like hype, doesn't it?

If you can't compete, STEAL your competition's work? For shame...

And the very fact that Lionstracs DON'T sample the T2 themselves, but leave it to mysterious 'third-party' pirates to do it just goes to show that they realize that it is wrong, and illegal.

If not... do the job yourselves, and see where THAT gets you.

I guess if you extend their line of reason, Lionstracs would be perfectly fine if somebody cracked their software, and offered it for free on the internet so anyone could have an MS in their computer? After all, it's just a little piracy. No-one gets hurt, right?

Or is piracy only OK if it's someone ELSE's intellectual property that gets ripped off?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-01-2007).]

Sampling started in the 80's. So there's nothing to worry about here.

I'm only talking about the copyright issues behind all this. Nothing else.



The GPL licence does not in anyway support what your doing though ?. I'm really trying to understand what angle of approach your taking on this, but since the sounds your sampling are copyrighted by Yamaha, I fail to see how you believe that it's ok to re-sample this data.

You cannot take someone else's copyrighted material and distribute it freely in a different, or any format. Right from the start, it's not your data to touch.

This is the copyright law.



Ok, but since under copyright law your not supposed to sample the sounds in the first place. The GPL licence does not support your activities. Secondly, you are placing a price tag on the sound and selling them from your website.

Fair enough, existing media station users get a copy for free, but just because I buy a CD Player off SONY doesn't mean I have the right to download every artist signed to SONY for free.



This is totally unrealistic.
Your the dealer, the source, the guys taking the money. You would be liable for all breaches of copyright law. Just because you didn't commit the crime of actually sampling the sounds, doesn't mean you wouldn't be liable for reselling the data or giving it away for free.

I was hoping that you had actually found some legislation that gave you the grounds to do what your doing legally, but the more I hear, the more I can't believe all this.




Honestly, I've never heard of this law.
Also the situation where I was being ripped off is technically not that different from what you guys are doing to Yamaha here. Your talking their sounds, sharing them freely, and selling them for profit.

As for the cost behind my sounds, this is because they are original and entirely my creation. If you where actually making your own and not just sampling someone else's work. You would realise how expensive it can be.

So to compare my so called high costs for single sounds to your Libraries is totally unfair.

Sure you can offer large libraries for very little money. That's because your not spending anything on development costs. Your just taking ( in this case ) Yamaha's sounds and sampling them.

I'm truly trying to understand your approach on all this, and I really would like to understand how you believe your not breaking any laws here. As a sound designer, I need to know every aspect of the law in order to develop new sounds, and protect my own work. So I'm really trying to stretch my views on what your actually doing here in order to see if I can understand your logic.

I still have to ask myself though, if what your doing is legal. Then why is nobody else doing this ?.



So is the 60 Euro your charging going straight to the guy who did all the sampling in the first place ?. And because you guys are the ones acting as the dealer taking the money. How does this exclude you from being attached to this software in anyway ?.



This is something totally different. What EMC are initially selling is a computer program that they created, not copied from someone else. It's their unique creation.



Probably because they are original. There's not exactly much there, and the sound quality is also not really up to much. You also have very small file sizes, and the age of certain sounds would easily be more than 15 years old. Some of the references being made refer to company's that don't' even exist any more.



But they created this software. They are not selling you the styles.



The 3 your referring to have had this ability to Sampling since the 80's.



As a computer that's fast, but as a musical instrument it has no originality. Seems that everything musical about it is taken from everyone else.

I was hoping that you had a new angle to what has been a never ending debate on countless Sampling forums, but so far all I've seen worries me.

Sampling in the manner you guys are is a recipe for disaster. It is inevitable that you guys will be contacted by Yamaha.

Personally I feel you guys should hire sound designers at this stage to create styles and sounds. You have some great features there in the MS, but as a musical instrument, it's sadly lacking originality.

Kind Regards
James

quote:1 and 2) read WELL again what mean GPL license: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

The GPL licence does not in anyway support what your doing though ?. I'm really trying to understand what angle of approach your taking on this, but since the sounds your sampling are copyrighted by Yamaha, I fail to see how you believe that it's ok to re-sample this data.

You cannot take someone else's copyrighted material and distribute it freely in a different, or any format. Right from the start, it's not your data to touch.

This is the copyright law.

I think still we have a different point of view, you still under commercial Microsoft mentality, where all MUST be payed from the enduser for the every simple or stupid application forever and then me, with the Linux Open source mentality, where all the people have the totally freedom to download FREE software.

I think you there skip to read the GPL license and selling Free software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

All my clients ( including Fran that do NOT have payed 1 euro for the MS and anyway was able to download the all sounds offered) we never asked 1 euro more for the all software and sounds library offered.

I been in some shops for find CD-DVD software, still under windows or Linux I have payed the magazine with the CD or DVD for 10-20 euro too. This mean ONLY that the service and hardware printing have one cost and every company can easy ask the desidered price for this service ( and of cousre the software included in the CD-DVD is already copyed)

We have our developer and the web server to pay every months, so I'm able to ask the price service that I like, for the NOT Mediastation custumers.

About the raw copyright data you are wrong, because we dont have ANY original RAW data.
Like you, we use a lot of commercial tools for cloning sounds, like Extremesample converter, CD Extract, Sample robot and Tascam Gigastudio GS3. ( I have the original license with Invoice of this all software and are NOT stolen! I will know there how many how you guys have ONLY copied software, includind Windows OS..)
After that, with OUR tools we are able to record any instruments that we like, because the RAW data will NEVER be SAME like the original.
After you have recorder, edited and spent a lot of hours for creating a new sounds under Giga format, you can NEVER say that this sounds was made from you.
Example: Piano CP80 is from yamaha, we know, BUT how many sounds like this one was take from the original CP80 piano? It this legal??
same way for the DX7 or Jupiter sounds, the raw data was take from the original instruments or not? who have then the right? Of couse have yamaha, roland, Korg... but still MILION of this sounds are cloned from scratch.
So..before we get legally problems, another 1000 company have to go in prision before Lionstracs.

3) read again well in our webpage who have developed this sounds and you can see there too that the all sounds are offered from 3th paty developers and if they like to clone and give us the sounds for FREE, we dont care because is not our falut or legally problems.

This is totally unrealistic.
Your the dealer, the source, the guys taking the money. You would be liable for all breaches of copyright law. Just because you didn't commit the crime of actually sampling the sounds, doesn't mean you wouldn't be liable for reselling the data or giving it away for free.

I was hoping that you had actually found some legislation that gave you the grounds to do what your doing legally, but the more I hear, the more I can't believe all this.

read again: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
We are able to cloning the all sounds from scratch that we like and offer for FREE how much we like.


quote point 3:
there we have to discuss a lot again, you dont like how our giga files sounds, I really dont like the simple sounds that you offer: http://www.irishacts.com/ezypal/index.php?do=catalog&c=yamaha_tyros_2
50 euro for ONE piano is really a lot of money and really do NOT sounds like one Giga Piano of Garritan ( that cost only 15 dollars now)
Still I dont want know how many hours you need to loading this sounds in T2...but this is another argument.
For sure you have your studio cost and I have my developer cost too.

quote point4:
We can ask how much money we like for our service for the ALL NOT mediastation user.
Soon we will also open one PAY ONE TIME SERVICE for the all NOT MS user and then they are able to download for FREE and forever this all sounds too.
This service is offered now from a lot of campany too, just look around the web.

quote point 5:
This is something totally different. What EMC are initially selling is a computer program that they created, not copied from someone else. It's their unique creation.

Well, I think in a different way too, when you buy this software is already loaded of styles of other company too and offer the possibility to copy/clone any styles.
If you like, I can think under your way too: the all MS software is developed from my deleloper and we offer not copied in our hardware.

quote point 6:
what is original? only the sounds that this guy can develope, BUT the all remain sounds are uploaded from TON of sounds enginers like you and me. So...who have this copy right there??

uote:7) Wersi with the new OAS7 made about the same, they can play the tyros styles and the sounds too, why they dont have any legally problems?

But they created this software. They are not selling you the styles.

are you joking??
do you know how much cost the OAS7 update??
do you know how much money the ask for some styles??
I never saw some under the Wersi website that is FREE cost...yes, the PDF documents and the Mp3 demos...

quote:
ampling in the manner you guys are is a recipe for disaster. It is inevitable that you guys will be contacted by Yamaha.

sounds good!
thn for sure we will contact soon from Korg too, because we are in development of OASYS, M3 and PAX sounds too. Ather this new giga library then will contact us Roland too, we are working in some library too.

How you wrote in your Korgforum... we will have soon a lot of fun...

quote:
Personally I feel you guys should hire sound designers at this stage to create styles and sounds. You have some great features there in the MS, but as a musical instrument, it's sadly lacking originality.

yes, here you are right..
Untill the styles under MS you don't like, we think is better offer ton of new sounds. In this way the MS can cover the 50% of the normally keyboards/synth.
Arranger market is about 3% of the whole keyboards market and only 1-2% of this people can play the styles..

You can see around...Mp3, vaw, Midifiles, Video, VST, PC system..
This is the field that the MS have to cover and not the only arranger players...

cheers

Original message from Korgforums: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25832&sid=9b8b3ceb545a673ac119723fa0d409cb

The fact is, we're still waiting for a major ruling from a court, whether European or American. And there is no intellectual property law that deals with this specific issue. Unlike using samples from records in your music.

At the moment, we say it's OK to sample an instrument so long as you don't sample the factory banks, to protect the work performed by the developer(s) of these banks, but the simple fact remain, we don't know.

Liontracs are not the first ones to do something like this. Indeed, Roland sued Nice Bytes in Germany a few years back as the latter were selling sample cd-roms of well known instruments, although only Roland sued. That case is still pending and the German court of appeal has not rendered its ruling yet. No doubt it will make case law at European level, and I wouldn't be surprised if either party, and specifically the losing one, used article 177 to ask the European Court to intervene and clarify some points of law (art 177 is a procedure whereby you can ask the European Court to clarify a point of law whilst you're into proceedings at national level).

So although caution is advisable, nobody can say for definite whether selling a sample DVD of Tyros sounds breaks the law or not.

Now, suppose it's not OK to sample the factory banks. How much do you need to modify a patch so it's no longer considered a factory sample ? If (from 0 to 127) a particular setting is 68. Does using 72 mean you're no longer sampling the factory patch ? Tricky isn't it !


Finally another there is not blind and for sure had read and understand what is the GPL license and what is the original protect RAW data...

What's the difference between protecting the developer of the factory banks versus the developer of other patches? I don't see the distinction between them. Surely all developers should have the same protection.

Hallo for all musicia
I am Trosha who is made GIGA T2 sample
first I am made for me this Tyros 2 sample
becouse I have Yamaha and love Yamaha sound and style.3 piano is not from Tyros2 becuse
i am change with True Pianos vst.for me is the best piano.only 70 mb.My piano sound is
abut 17 mb per sound stereo.also I am made for me True piano 100,300 and 700 mb per sound with 12 leyering stereo end mono
but is tu much for use in live.Also i am use 9000 pro and T2 sound to make sample for arranger MSX.and many sound I will change.bass guitar etc.i want to use Tyros2 for voice list. I mean 504 sound,so that I can use all yamaha style.that was been my
ideas.only for use on arr left side.I have
for right side solo many batter sound that T2 so I must live for me.
This all sound which I send Lionstracs is for
FREE.not selling.So if someone need special
sound please contact me.I will make for Free.I didnt know that will be so much problem with this all my sound giga.
Also I would like to find job for some company which make sample or need sample
for arranger or etc.if some know send me message.I am little poor musician who want to help other keyboards player.
If Yamaha have job for me or some company
I am ready and wait.I have many free time for work
regards for all good people and sorry for all
Trosha from serbia

He sounds like a good guy to me. I don't think there was any larcenous intent there. I hope he has luck finding employment in this area. Sounds like he's got a musician's heart.

chas

I have to agree with you there, Chas. See what a fine mess you've got us into now again.

Now, aren't we all guilty of taking someone else's work without a thought of compensating the source? Whether it's in the open or behind closed doors, it's still the same, right?

Taike

There is a huge difference between creating a sample CD of a few Korg or Roland sounds, and creating a GIGA clone of the entire ROM soundbank (needed for style compatibility).

You could never use the sample CD's as a replacement for the keyboard it was derived from, it only gave you access to a few sounds. Stealing the entire soundset is completely different.

Secondly, while the big 3 certainly payed some legal attention to previous sampling projects, it was not worth their time or money to pursue it rigorously, because it had a negligible impact on their sales (and the perpetrators had no money worth litigating over). But wholesale piracy, in the name of a 'virtual' T2 is another matter altogether, and Lionstracs certainly have enough capital, and probably business insurance (although Domenik's fly-by-night attitude doesn't inspire confidence in even THAT business basic!) that it would definitely be in Yamaha's interest to litigate (plus Korg and Roland, from what Dom is saying).

And the rest of you egging him on.... for shame.

Have you thought this through for ONE minute? If by some devious legal shenanigans Dom actually prevails in this matter, what do you think this will do to the industry? What POSSIBLE motive will and of the Big 3 (and their smaller cousins) have to develop, at considerable expense, any new product if they face the immediate piracy of their sounds?

Not much, is my guess. Kiss goodbye to a T3, or a G80, or a PA2X, or any new, innovative arranger from anyone, when faced with immediate piracy of sounds and styles.

Looks like you may be stuck with this piece of cr*p MS and no new sounds for a long time (Dom certainly has no idea about how to make a decent soundset himself) if you walk down this path...

My hopes and wishes go out to Yamaha's legal team (even though it's hard to root for the bloodsucking lawyers!), and I pray, for the future of new product development, that they prevail against this outrageous, blatant piracy...

As for me, well, Lionstracs lost at least ONE potential customer on this thread...

Diki, you've got me wrong. My response was to Trosha's post(I just don't see him as an evil person). In fact, I don't condone software piracy on any level, no matter how you spin it. I think the MS guys are wrong in that they are using a rival's R&D to help sell their own product. That makes it, at the very least, unethical (and probably illegal). I agree with you that it would be new styles and sounds that would generate interest in the MS for me. Otherwise I'd just take my old A70 controller, a $800.00 laptop, some velcro, and free (as in pirated) styles and soundbanks, and have a nice $800 approximation of a Mediastation (well, not exactly, but it's like that Hundai Azera/Lexus ad, for the difference in $$$, you can hire someone to park it).

Just so we're clear.

chas

Hallo again
i am must read replays
how to explain my opinion
I am buy before 4 years yamaha 9000 pro
and paid 200 euros for sample 32 sound from this web http://www.yumidi.com/instruments.php
so I for me is not good sound and style
and I am decide to make for me.nobody dont want to explain me how to do and I am lose many month to find how ta make good sample.
And I am read on interet about LIONSTRACS
i will buy ONE.I never herad before and I am think that is FUTURE.So I am buy one first version from 2004.After probe i am see
some big potencial for me and some problem with arranger left side,and i am think that I can help lionstracs to solve this problem
with style.I want use Yamaha t2 sound becouse I am try Korg Pa1x pro and roland
and is not good sound for me.Its not metter
which arranger is.Wersi,Roland,Korg or Yamaha.i am try many software instr,Kontakt, Garritian,Brumstick,Sonic Implants, many AKAI cd and all this staff
dont have sound for arranger.all this my example have sound for right side on arr.
SOLO right hand.Also i must tell that T2 have 504 sound,Korg Pa1x pro have 943 sound or more Roland have much sound for sampling..t2 is best solution for style.And i will start to make t2 sound.I will change many T2 sound later and lionstracs will have own sound.I think that we use voice list from T2 for style.That is my solution for my problem for lionstracs.If some one know better contact me or liostracs owner
regards
Trosha

You fail to understand, trosha... By sampling a T2, you are NOT making a sample. You are stealing someone else's sample. To make a piano sample for instance, you have to take mikes and a recorder out to a REAL piano, and record that... To make a brass sample, you have to hire in brass players, and record them laboriously to create a coherent set of brass samples. Ditto guitars, ditto basses, ditto everything else in the T2...

You, on the other hand, have neither the skills nor the resources to do this. So what is your solution? Oh, yes.. steal the work of someone that DID have the resources and skills to do it.

I can imagine how forgiving you will be, when someone who has neither the skills nor the resources to buy a computer and some keyboards breaks into your house and steals everything you have got... No doubt you will forgive him, go out and buy a lot more expensive equipment (and then leave the door to your house open, so the NEXT poor penniless person can help themselves again).... NO?

This is, in essence, EXACTLY what you are doing... Or is theft OK only if it is YOU doing the stealing...

As I said, there is a quantum difference between sampling a few sounds from different Roland or Korg keyboards for use in a sampler, and the outright copying of every single sound in a keyboard to duplicate the machine. But fortunately, you are not even smart enough to not brag about your piracy on a public forum that logs IP's, so hopefully, Yamaha's lawyers will be beating down your doors sooner than you expect.

You are no better than the thief who burgles your apartment, and deserve the same fate...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-02-2007).]

Wow! If I ever look up and see you on my jury, Diki, I think that's when I'll "eat my gun". I think the key here is the profit motive. I just don't see any in this situation (from Trosha). I also don't feel comfortable landing so hard on a newbie who hasn't exactly presented himself as a pr..k. We have to make sure we don't present ourselves as one (we wouldn't want to sully our pristine image around the world, now would we? ).

chas

Theft is theft, chas...

What upsets me the most is not only his acknowledgment of wholesale piracy, but defending it, too. Just like the 'fair use' laws that permit you to copy your own CD's FOR YOUR OWN USE, once you start to share those freely on the internet, you are no longer abiding by those laws.

This is not 'newbie' behavior, but simply the action of someone that doesn't care what the law is...

on the question of sampling (rather than piracy)..it seems to me that sampling say, a t2 sound, is no different to sampling a Gibson guitar, the engineers at Gibson worked hard to create that particular sound(similar to engineers who synthesise a sound on a keyboard)...does this mean that you have to pay a royalty to Gibson everytime you use that sample, or that its illegal to use that sampled gibson guitar sound? now i might be on the wrong track here, but i guess that means if you create a song using the T2 sounds you must pay yamaha a royalty for using that sound in your song?? just some points for discussion.
cheers
dennis

I think what he's defending is his perception of what is ethical and permissable under the law. I don't think he'd be saying anything if he thought he was doing something wrong. Why don't we cut him some slack. After all, the whole thing is still open to (legal and moral) interpretation, and none of us here are lawyers (thank God).

chas

woww, finally another have understand the BASIC concept of Sampling any instruments and that is totally Legally!

The Gibson Guitar is only ONE example of the TON of instruments, like the famous Steinway, Bosendorf, Stradivari Violin, Gretsch guitars and Drums.... and then we can continue with the OLD Jupiter 8, Korg M1, Yamaha DX7, CP80...

Look around in the web how many sounds company offer this sounds under different format, the first one was the AKAI that have CLONED all what was possible till the last new company that offer sounds under the all possible format.
Have they MAYBE payed the royalty to the owner of this instruments??

Of couse in this new generation of PC system and audio tools available we can use now the Jack cables, Digital IN/OUT, SCSI, LAN... and for some electronic instruments we use this system for sampling the unit.

Guys like DIKI, beach player of OLD generation musician, still think that we need to use the MIC, VOX recorder with TAPE Echo system or original Lesle cabinet...and ONLY under this OLD system we are allowed for sampling the instruments??

IF the law allow to sampling any instruments ( and NOT copy the original RAW data, like ROM/FLASH/Wave) then will aloow to sampling the Tyros 2 too, because is one instruments too.
Is the law same for all the instruments OR the Tyros 2 ONLY is excluded?? What is the difference??
Or maybe we have to shown you with one picture that we have sample the Tyros 2 with 2 Microphone, analog Montarbo mixer and tape echo unit for make one sound legally?

Quote from DIKI:
As I said, there is a quantum difference between sampling a few sounds from different Roland or Korg keyboards for use in a sampler, and the outright copying of every single sound in a keyboard to duplicate the machine. But fortunately, you are not even smart enough to not brag about your piracy on a public forum that logs IP's, so hopefully, Yamaha's lawyers will be beating down your doors sooner than you expect.

You are no better than the thief who burgles your apartment, and deserve the same fate...

You are so ARROGANT and stupid..
Who you will scare?? Who you are for write this stupid words??
Before you wrote here do you have used your head or you just write when you are drunk??
For some second after i start read your message, I tough that you work with President Bush and make the Law....but at the end you had shown your hig quote of intelligence..

IF you will receive RESPECT, GIVE respect to the other people too.
You feel upset? I'm upset too when you continue give s...t to nice and intelligen people that here will posting nice and with technical question.

If you dont feel good sharing message here with this nice people, then stay in the beach drink beer and play playback karaoke, ( just looking your picture and this will tell all) because for sure you can not play professional one arranger.

NOW you can be UPSET, BUT you deserve it totally!

Ha..sorry, forget to post this: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/sound-pass-p-180.html

Maybe now we will be contacted from Korg, Roland and ketron too?

Guys..use the MIC and sampling the all what you like!
Enjoy what you play

wow talk about a hijacked post......

Diki , you come on pretty strong for someone that has never touched an Media Station..I think your views are out of place..At least if I say something about something[keyboard], I played the instrument first..

I think you better take a pill or two...you are hyper ed again..

BTW: I can't think of one Tyros2 sound that I would bother coping anyway..

So Chas, tell us more about your new computer..

Indeed the topic has shot off into another total different direction BUT, Putting personal opinions aside, Lionstracs has every single right to be defending himself after all the abuse and questioning that has been thrown at him by members who haven't even laid hands on his product or seen it in real life...

Nick

Sorry Fran, I can't. I think it may have an illegal sample on it .

chas

Not one of you have addressed the issue of, what do Yamaha and Roland and Korg do to prevent the outright theft of THEIR sounds...?

What possible incentive do they have to develop new sounds, when immediate piracy is going to happen...?

What trosha and Dom fail to acknowledge is that despite their infantile idea that sampling another keyboard IS sampling, NONE of the samples that they steal were got by going out and sampling another keyboard. Yamaha payed a LOT of money to VERY skilled engineers and musicians to record the samples in a T2 (sampling a Gibson is not theft of the Gibson sound, sampling a sample of a Gibson is theft of the sample... pure and simple). Ditto Korg, ditto Roland. And now they are supposed to sit back while some kid (that's what they sound like, but maybe that's just poor English!) copies their work, and profits from it (Dom's MS isn't exactly setting the world on fire with the soundsets HE created for it!)...

This thing stinks of the Napster MP3 days, when everybody decided that sharing music they had payed for with everyone in the world for free was a good idea... We have all seen the result of that fiasco. Copying music to share is illegal. Copying it for your own use is NOT.

Sampling another keyboard for your own use is legal (we think), copying it completely to share with everyone else is not...

Not one of you seem capable of putting yourself in the shoes of a person that DOES develop libraries for commercial use, or the person in charge of a keyboard manufacturer that is watching his VERY expensive investment in state of the art sampling for his latest product (remember, these guys are NOT sampling an M1 or a JX8P, out of production classics... they are pirating the LATEST models these companies make, ones they rely on for continued R&D money) go down the drain.

Perhaps, just like MP3's, you all think 'what harm can this do?'. Of course, probably not one of you HAS had a chart success, or commercial record released. Otherwise, you MIGHT have a different perspective on this if it were YOUR income being diminished.

But you would all probably be horrified to find a restaurant manager, or old folks home director secretly taping your show, and then using THAT as 'entertainment' and your gigs dry up. But I see very little difference, here (it IS 'sampling' your show!).

The harm will be when Yamaha no longer make arrangers (at least, TOTL ones), when Korg stop developing new arrangers, when Roland just give up (if they can't prevail legally against this piracy). Remember, as Dom points out, the arranger market is a TINY fraction of the whole keyboard market, and even THAT is a tiny industry by global standards. It will not take much to push what is already a barely profitable division into complete stasis.

And THEN you will all be sitting around going 'why aren't there any new arrangers, with new sounds and capabilities...?'. And then I won't be the ONLY one that needs a 'chill pill'.

I know this isn't what you all want to hear, and no, I don't develop ROM libraries for the big 3, or even have a single on the charts right now, but even I know what is right and wrong by the simple golden rule... If this was being done to YOU, how would YOU feel about it...?

Me... I'd be pi$$ed off beyond belief.

Hey Chas,

Congrats on the new PC sounds like a real speed demon. You might as well test out a few Softsynths - vst's, Giga sounds ect... you might be surprised at your opinion of them vs the hardware synths you are used to. You'll never know unless you give it a try.

I don't like be the one to change the topic of a thread, but I have no problem adding to one that's already strayed. LOL

Diki, you have raised some concerns about the sound libraries that are being developed for the Mediastation, I don't pretend to know the laws on this matter, but I have to agree with the others that you are taking a pretty hard stance with your opinion of what is proper and what is not.

I consider Trosa a friend and I've had the privlege of speaking with him on numerous occassions and each time he was taking a short break from his work in sampling and sound design. What he has developed for the MS has been a very large undertaking, not simply connecting a usb cable and typing a copy command.

I would liken it more to the task of sampling a Steinway Piano. Carefully recording all 88 notes at multiple velocities and then editing various parameters for the best results.

When one samples a Steinway he is recording the sound of an instrument that has been painstakingly built to perfection by craftsmen, yet we have no problem with taking advantage of the fruits of their labor. And when one plays the NI B4 program I don't think their is any confusion that it is very good replica of the B3 made by Hammond.

But we don't accuse Native Instruments of theft from Hammond nor do say that Synthology is guilty of theft from Steinway, Yamaha, or Bosendorfer with their well known product, Ivory.

Am I to understand that the difference is simply that we can sample acoustic instruments but not electronic ones?

We can sample a Steinway Grand but not a Yamaha tyros?

Doesn't sound as simple an issue to me as it has been portrayed.

And if we're really worried that the big three are going to stop making arrangers because of lost profits resulting from this soundbank being developed, then we could start making charitable contributions to these poor companies.

Hey maybe a large enough donation would bring the chord sequencer back. LOL Just kidding. The chord sequencer actually sounds like a good feature, I hope Dom will decide to add it to the MS one day.

Yes, then Diki will have to buy a Mediastaion

50 bucks says Donny will own a MS for a week this year...

hahahahaha

LMAO

Diki, will all respect, but I find this hard to believe. If that were based on fact then no one would even bother attending concerts if they already had the CD, recorded it from the radio or heard the gig before. It would be the END of all live gigs. Fortunately people will always prefer to see live shows to merely listening to a recording. Think of it, artists would be unwilling to even have recordings, legal or illegal, for it would kill their live acts.

Taike

I actually contacted Nigel, and asked him if he could split this section off and start a new thread, as I consider this a VERY significant topic, but he said the software can't do this, but he wanted to leave Dom's posts up for all to see.



If you don't pretend to know the laws, you simply have to use your common sense (although that and the law seldom walk the same path!)... Does this sound like piracy? The outright sampling of an arranger's entire soundset? It certainly does to me. I can understand sampling a few synth sounds from an older keyboard, but the plagiarism of an arranger's entire soundset does not ring right.



Once again the answer is simple. And complex. Does this FEEL right...? While Trosha laboriously works to copy the samples in a T2, this work is miniscule in comparison to the work and expense of making the initial sample. Try it, if you think I'm incorrect. The cost of developing the samples that the Big 3 use is WAY beyond Dom's ability to absorb (witness his first few soundsets on the Dream chip - LOL, what a poor name for that nightmare of sound!), so what is his answer? Have Trosha copy Yamaha's work, and make it available for free to use on HIS arranger (which is in competition with Yamaha).

If you liken what Trosha is doing to miking a real piano and developing coherent multisamples for it (one of the most difficult tasks in sampling - witness how few actually sound any good!), you must be blind to the fact that what Trosha is REALLY doing is copy the work of the people that actually DID go out and do this incredibly difficult and expensive task. If he WAS actually sampling the piano himself, I would respect this. But he merely leeches off the work of the amazing engineers and sound developers that DO make this possible. Where is the skill in this? It's a tedious task, admittedly, but nothing compared to getting a great sax multi-sample, or hiring an orchestra to get a good string sound.



It has long been established (from the beginning of the sampler days) that the work involved in sampling an acoustic instrument makes it a new work. It is not like you are actually BUILDING a piano, and then putting a counterfeit 'Steinway' decal on it and selling it as a 'real' one!

But it has also LONG been established that you CAN'T go into a ROMpler and sample the basic data, because you are COPYING the work that went into making those samples in the first place. The person or company that do the work in the first place deserve the rights to their work, and the profits that come from said work. Sampling the presets of an arranger's ENTIRE soundset comes EXTREMELY close to this definition (how do you alter the drum kit sounds, for instance, so as not to be just copying the ROM?), and it seems to me that litigation over this issue is probably already being considered.

As to whether NI B4 is the same thing, firstly, B3's haven't been made for 30 years or more. Secondly, B4 is a modeled, rather than pure sampled emulation. But the relevant thing is, this is not a copy of a current Hammond product (in fact, Hammond's current product is also an emulation of a B3!).

And finally, Ivory is a legal sampling project under the current laws, but were Trosha to go and buy Ivory, then sample IT, and then give away the sounds, he WOULD be in violation of the law. And this is what he is basically doing with the T2 (and soon Korg and Roland). So I would be VERY surprised if they don't see a 'cease and desist' order from their legal system VERY soon.

So basically, yes, you can sample a Steinway (although you MIGHT have to pay a small fee to Steinway if you mention it is a sampled Steinway in your ad - I'm not 100% sure about this issue), but you can't go out and sample the presets of a current ROMpler (like the T2) unless you so alter the sounds as to be recognizably different from the original sound (exactly the thing they are trying to avoid to make it useful as a clone for the styles)...



Firstly, as I said earlier, you don't realize how small the keyboard industry is, and how little it would take to stop it from being profitable. Note how the MP3 piracy and CD copying has reduced the record industry's profits by 30-40% by some figures, enough to put most small businesses out of commission. I think I read somewhere that the entire arranger industry's gross is about the same as ONE Mega Wal-Mart's gross. Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

And once again, NO-ONE is looking to a future where what Trosha is doing is legal, and a lot of other pirates jump in and also do it, and ANY new keyboard is immediately cloned the day it is released. Where will Trosha's new sounds come from then? He needs to focus his considerable skills on learning how to REALLY go out and make great samples, because there will no longer be anyone else's work for him to copy (steal, that is!).

And finally... (I wish!), the Chord Sequencer is a CONCEPT, and unless Roland have a patent on it (they might, given that no-one else has ever added this great feature to any other arranger!) it would be perfectly OK for Dom to add it to his OS. But were he to go out and copy the code from an older Roland, and put it wholesale into his OS, he would be in violation of the law once again.

I don't see how cloning the ROM sounds of an existing, current, TOTL arranger is much different...

I hope I have given you something to think about on this complex issue. I know it's easy to go 'wow! - I can get a T2 for free (or an Oasys, or a G70), I want one...' but you have to look a little further to the ramifications of what will happen if this IS legal. And I don't see much good coming from it... Except that the MS might FINALLY sound nearly as good as a T2.

But only by stealing it's sounds and styles...

Well, you might want to consider how few live music gigs there are nowadays, compared to the days BEFORE high fidelity recording. Back then if you wanted to hear good music, you HAD to go out and hear it live. There were NO discos or raves or clubs with canned music of any kind. If there was music, there were musicians. If there was music in a restaurant, there was a band, or at least a pianist. How many restaurants do you know with canned music playing? Most of them...

There IS still a demand for live music, but it is nowhere near the level of the 20's and 30's...

And letting yourself get surreptitiously 'sampled' won't completely kill ALL your gigs. But we all know a club owner or MD somewhere who might try to save a BIT of money and play you occasionally rather than hire you, and ANY gig lost is money lost...

I've read several posts on this forum where members describe this happening, occasionally. So don't try to tell me it doesn't happen...

So try to imagine how you will feel WHEN it happens to you, and then think about this 'cloning' issue... Feels a bit different if YOU are the one losing money over it, doesn't it?

Seriously, Diki, who could even afford a grammophone player in the 20's and 30's. Also, musicians weren't paid what they're paid nowadays. In fact, musicians weren't held in high esteem and were pretty low on the social ladder. One only has to look at the great classical composers. If it weren't for wealthty sponsors they'd all have lived like paupers. Quite a few did, in fact. Even doctors were a poor lot once but that's a different story.

Times have changed and live entertainment doesn't come cheap. People no longer just want a singer or a band. They want a show with special effects, etc. It takes an entire airplane just for the equipment and quite a few of the stars' demands are outrageous. Give them the wrong mineral water and they go beserk. Perhaps a little thought on how hard African-American artists had it not too long ago might make them realize how little they're into it for the music. It's all money they seem to care for.

Still, canned music will never come over the same way as live entertainment. Not even a Live recording will. So what if they can your performance. How often do you think they'll have to play it before the audience gets sick of hearing it. A 'live' musican/band will give variety. And if they ever can my playing...I'd be honored. Gosh, I wish my time in the elevator will come some day!

Taike

ROFLMAO, Taike... What world are you playing in? I certainly don't see regular gigging musicians treated with any more respect than they were in the 20's and 30's... And they had divas and stars that had just as outrageous demands as nowadays. Not to mention superstar classical composers like Liszt, the Mick Jagger of his day! And there are plenty of stars from the last few years that died paupers, too (few doctors, though!)..

Plenty of people could afford gramophones in the 20's and 30's, Taike (at least in the US) but they were ANYTHING but 'hi-fi'... and did not have the volume to compete with a real big band (or even small combo). Even nowadays, it takes a reasonably beefy PA to get louder than a real drummer playing hard...

The fact is, there is only a small fraction of full time working musicians nowadays, compared to the 20's and 30's. And high quality recordings and more powerful PA systems is PRECISELY the reason for it. I only WISH that things were different, but they are not. The proportion of live to recorded music being played continues to diminish every year, and has been doing so for a VERY long time.

And, no disrespect, but if people really WERE still interested in live music, there wouldn't be a single OMB using an arranger with a gig. There would be full bands, everywhere. Just like there used to be. We would still be playing, but we would have a REAL rhythm section, and REAL sidemen, instead of pre-canned (dare I say... 'sampled') musicians...