And the very fact that Lionstracs DON'T sample the T2 themselves, but leave it to mysterious 'third-party' pirates to do it just goes to show that they realize that it is wrong, and illegal.

If not... do the job yourselves, and see where THAT gets you.

I guess if you extend their line of reason, Lionstracs would be perfectly fine if somebody cracked their software, and offered it for free on the internet so anyone could have an MS in their computer? After all, it's just a little piracy. No-one gets hurt, right?

Or is piracy only OK if it's someone ELSE's intellectual property that gets ripped off?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-01-2007).]

Sampling started in the 80's. So there's nothing to worry about here.

I'm only talking about the copyright issues behind all this. Nothing else.



The GPL licence does not in anyway support what your doing though ?. I'm really trying to understand what angle of approach your taking on this, but since the sounds your sampling are copyrighted by Yamaha, I fail to see how you believe that it's ok to re-sample this data.

You cannot take someone else's copyrighted material and distribute it freely in a different, or any format. Right from the start, it's not your data to touch.

This is the copyright law.



Ok, but since under copyright law your not supposed to sample the sounds in the first place. The GPL licence does not support your activities. Secondly, you are placing a price tag on the sound and selling them from your website.

Fair enough, existing media station users get a copy for free, but just because I buy a CD Player off SONY doesn't mean I have the right to download every artist signed to SONY for free.



This is totally unrealistic.
Your the dealer, the source, the guys taking the money. You would be liable for all breaches of copyright law. Just because you didn't commit the crime of actually sampling the sounds, doesn't mean you wouldn't be liable for reselling the data or giving it away for free.

I was hoping that you had actually found some legislation that gave you the grounds to do what your doing legally, but the more I hear, the more I can't believe all this.




Honestly, I've never heard of this law.
Also the situation where I was being ripped off is technically not that different from what you guys are doing to Yamaha here. Your talking their sounds, sharing them freely, and selling them for profit.

As for the cost behind my sounds, this is because they are original and entirely my creation. If you where actually making your own and not just sampling someone else's work. You would realise how expensive it can be.

So to compare my so called high costs for single sounds to your Libraries is totally unfair.

Sure you can offer large libraries for very little money. That's because your not spending anything on development costs. Your just taking ( in this case ) Yamaha's sounds and sampling them.

I'm truly trying to understand your approach on all this, and I really would like to understand how you believe your not breaking any laws here. As a sound designer, I need to know every aspect of the law in order to develop new sounds, and protect my own work. So I'm really trying to stretch my views on what your actually doing here in order to see if I can understand your logic.

I still have to ask myself though, if what your doing is legal. Then why is nobody else doing this ?.



So is the 60 Euro your charging going straight to the guy who did all the sampling in the first place ?. And because you guys are the ones acting as the dealer taking the money. How does this exclude you from being attached to this software in anyway ?.



This is something totally different. What EMC are initially selling is a computer program that they created, not copied from someone else. It's their unique creation.



Probably because they are original. There's not exactly much there, and the sound quality is also not really up to much. You also have very small file sizes, and the age of certain sounds would easily be more than 15 years old. Some of the references being made refer to company's that don't' even exist any more.



But they created this software. They are not selling you the styles.



The 3 your referring to have had this ability to Sampling since the 80's.



As a computer that's fast, but as a musical instrument it has no originality. Seems that everything musical about it is taken from everyone else.

I was hoping that you had a new angle to what has been a never ending debate on countless Sampling forums, but so far all I've seen worries me.

Sampling in the manner you guys are is a recipe for disaster. It is inevitable that you guys will be contacted by Yamaha.

Personally I feel you guys should hire sound designers at this stage to create styles and sounds. You have some great features there in the MS, but as a musical instrument, it's sadly lacking originality.

Kind Regards
James

quote:1 and 2) read WELL again what mean GPL license: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

The GPL licence does not in anyway support what your doing though ?. I'm really trying to understand what angle of approach your taking on this, but since the sounds your sampling are copyrighted by Yamaha, I fail to see how you believe that it's ok to re-sample this data.

You cannot take someone else's copyrighted material and distribute it freely in a different, or any format. Right from the start, it's not your data to touch.

This is the copyright law.

I think still we have a different point of view, you still under commercial Microsoft mentality, where all MUST be payed from the enduser for the every simple or stupid application forever and then me, with the Linux Open source mentality, where all the people have the totally freedom to download FREE software.

I think you there skip to read the GPL license and selling Free software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

All my clients ( including Fran that do NOT have payed 1 euro for the MS and anyway was able to download the all sounds offered) we never asked 1 euro more for the all software and sounds library offered.

I been in some shops for find CD-DVD software, still under windows or Linux I have payed the magazine with the CD or DVD for 10-20 euro too. This mean ONLY that the service and hardware printing have one cost and every company can easy ask the desidered price for this service ( and of cousre the software included in the CD-DVD is already copyed)

We have our developer and the web server to pay every months, so I'm able to ask the price service that I like, for the NOT Mediastation custumers.

About the raw copyright data you are wrong, because we dont have ANY original RAW data.
Like you, we use a lot of commercial tools for cloning sounds, like Extremesample converter, CD Extract, Sample robot and Tascam Gigastudio GS3. ( I have the original license with Invoice of this all software and are NOT stolen! I will know there how many how you guys have ONLY copied software, includind Windows OS..)
After that, with OUR tools we are able to record any instruments that we like, because the RAW data will NEVER be SAME like the original.
After you have recorder, edited and spent a lot of hours for creating a new sounds under Giga format, you can NEVER say that this sounds was made from you.
Example: Piano CP80 is from yamaha, we know, BUT how many sounds like this one was take from the original CP80 piano? It this legal??
same way for the DX7 or Jupiter sounds, the raw data was take from the original instruments or not? who have then the right? Of couse have yamaha, roland, Korg... but still MILION of this sounds are cloned from scratch.
So..before we get legally problems, another 1000 company have to go in prision before Lionstracs.

3) read again well in our webpage who have developed this sounds and you can see there too that the all sounds are offered from 3th paty developers and if they like to clone and give us the sounds for FREE, we dont care because is not our falut or legally problems.

This is totally unrealistic.
Your the dealer, the source, the guys taking the money. You would be liable for all breaches of copyright law. Just because you didn't commit the crime of actually sampling the sounds, doesn't mean you wouldn't be liable for reselling the data or giving it away for free.

I was hoping that you had actually found some legislation that gave you the grounds to do what your doing legally, but the more I hear, the more I can't believe all this.

read again: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
We are able to cloning the all sounds from scratch that we like and offer for FREE how much we like.


quote point 3:
there we have to discuss a lot again, you dont like how our giga files sounds, I really dont like the simple sounds that you offer: http://www.irishacts.com/ezypal/index.php?do=catalog&c=yamaha_tyros_2
50 euro for ONE piano is really a lot of money and really do NOT sounds like one Giga Piano of Garritan ( that cost only 15 dollars now)
Still I dont want know how many hours you need to loading this sounds in T2...but this is another argument.
For sure you have your studio cost and I have my developer cost too.

quote point4:
We can ask how much money we like for our service for the ALL NOT mediastation user.
Soon we will also open one PAY ONE TIME SERVICE for the all NOT MS user and then they are able to download for FREE and forever this all sounds too.
This service is offered now from a lot of campany too, just look around the web.

quote point 5:
This is something totally different. What EMC are initially selling is a computer program that they created, not copied from someone else. It's their unique creation.

Well, I think in a different way too, when you buy this software is already loaded of styles of other company too and offer the possibility to copy/clone any styles.
If you like, I can think under your way too: the all MS software is developed from my deleloper and we offer not copied in our hardware.

quote point 6:
what is original? only the sounds that this guy can develope, BUT the all remain sounds are uploaded from TON of sounds enginers like you and me. So...who have this copy right there??

uote:7) Wersi with the new OAS7 made about the same, they can play the tyros styles and the sounds too, why they dont have any legally problems?

But they created this software. They are not selling you the styles.

are you joking??
do you know how much cost the OAS7 update??
do you know how much money the ask for some styles??
I never saw some under the Wersi website that is FREE cost...yes, the PDF documents and the Mp3 demos...

quote:
ampling in the manner you guys are is a recipe for disaster. It is inevitable that you guys will be contacted by Yamaha.

sounds good!
thn for sure we will contact soon from Korg too, because we are in development of OASYS, M3 and PAX sounds too. Ather this new giga library then will contact us Roland too, we are working in some library too.

How you wrote in your Korgforum... we will have soon a lot of fun...

quote:
Personally I feel you guys should hire sound designers at this stage to create styles and sounds. You have some great features there in the MS, but as a musical instrument, it's sadly lacking originality.

yes, here you are right..
Untill the styles under MS you don't like, we think is better offer ton of new sounds. In this way the MS can cover the 50% of the normally keyboards/synth.
Arranger market is about 3% of the whole keyboards market and only 1-2% of this people can play the styles..

You can see around...Mp3, vaw, Midifiles, Video, VST, PC system..
This is the field that the MS have to cover and not the only arranger players...

cheers

Original message from Korgforums: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25832&sid=9b8b3ceb545a673ac119723fa0d409cb

The fact is, we're still waiting for a major ruling from a court, whether European or American. And there is no intellectual property law that deals with this specific issue. Unlike using samples from records in your music.

At the moment, we say it's OK to sample an instrument so long as you don't sample the factory banks, to protect the work performed by the developer(s) of these banks, but the simple fact remain, we don't know.

Liontracs are not the first ones to do something like this. Indeed, Roland sued Nice Bytes in Germany a few years back as the latter were selling sample cd-roms of well known instruments, although only Roland sued. That case is still pending and the German court of appeal has not rendered its ruling yet. No doubt it will make case law at European level, and I wouldn't be surprised if either party, and specifically the losing one, used article 177 to ask the European Court to intervene and clarify some points of law (art 177 is a procedure whereby you can ask the European Court to clarify a point of law whilst you're into proceedings at national level).

So although caution is advisable, nobody can say for definite whether selling a sample DVD of Tyros sounds breaks the law or not.

Now, suppose it's not OK to sample the factory banks. How much do you need to modify a patch so it's no longer considered a factory sample ? If (from 0 to 127) a particular setting is 68. Does using 72 mean you're no longer sampling the factory patch ? Tricky isn't it !


Finally another there is not blind and for sure had read and understand what is the GPL license and what is the original protect RAW data...

What's the difference between protecting the developer of the factory banks versus the developer of other patches? I don't see the distinction between them. Surely all developers should have the same protection.

Hallo for all musicia
I am Trosha who is made GIGA T2 sample
first I am made for me this Tyros 2 sample
becouse I have Yamaha and love Yamaha sound and style.3 piano is not from Tyros2 becuse
i am change with True Pianos vst.for me is the best piano.only 70 mb.My piano sound is
abut 17 mb per sound stereo.also I am made for me True piano 100,300 and 700 mb per sound with 12 leyering stereo end mono
but is tu much for use in live.Also i am use 9000 pro and T2 sound to make sample for arranger MSX.and many sound I will change.bass guitar etc.i want to use Tyros2 for voice list. I mean 504 sound,so that I can use all yamaha style.that was been my
ideas.only for use on arr left side.I have
for right side solo many batter sound that T2 so I must live for me.
This all sound which I send Lionstracs is for
FREE.not selling.So if someone need special
sound please contact me.I will make for Free.I didnt know that will be so much problem with this all my sound giga.
Also I would like to find job for some company which make sample or need sample
for arranger or etc.if some know send me message.I am little poor musician who want to help other keyboards player.
If Yamaha have job for me or some company
I am ready and wait.I have many free time for work
regards for all good people and sorry for all
Trosha from serbia

He sounds like a good guy to me. I don't think there was any larcenous intent there. I hope he has luck finding employment in this area. Sounds like he's got a musician's heart.

chas

I have to agree with you there, Chas. See what a fine mess you've got us into now again.

Now, aren't we all guilty of taking someone else's work without a thought of compensating the source? Whether it's in the open or behind closed doors, it's still the same, right?

Taike

There is a huge difference between creating a sample CD of a few Korg or Roland sounds, and creating a GIGA clone of the entire ROM soundbank (needed for style compatibility).

You could never use the sample CD's as a replacement for the keyboard it was derived from, it only gave you access to a few sounds. Stealing the entire soundset is completely different.

Secondly, while the big 3 certainly payed some legal attention to previous sampling projects, it was not worth their time or money to pursue it rigorously, because it had a negligible impact on their sales (and the perpetrators had no money worth litigating over). But wholesale piracy, in the name of a 'virtual' T2 is another matter altogether, and Lionstracs certainly have enough capital, and probably business insurance (although Domenik's fly-by-night attitude doesn't inspire confidence in even THAT business basic!) that it would definitely be in Yamaha's interest to litigate (plus Korg and Roland, from what Dom is saying).

And the rest of you egging him on.... for shame.

Have you thought this through for ONE minute? If by some devious legal shenanigans Dom actually prevails in this matter, what do you think this will do to the industry? What POSSIBLE motive will and of the Big 3 (and their smaller cousins) have to develop, at considerable expense, any new product if they face the immediate piracy of their sounds?

Not much, is my guess. Kiss goodbye to a T3, or a G80, or a PA2X, or any new, innovative arranger from anyone, when faced with immediate piracy of sounds and styles.

Looks like you may be stuck with this piece of cr*p MS and no new sounds for a long time (Dom certainly has no idea about how to make a decent soundset himself) if you walk down this path...

My hopes and wishes go out to Yamaha's legal team (even though it's hard to root for the bloodsucking lawyers!), and I pray, for the future of new product development, that they prevail against this outrageous, blatant piracy...

As for me, well, Lionstracs lost at least ONE potential customer on this thread...

Diki, you've got me wrong. My response was to Trosha's post(I just don't see him as an evil person). In fact, I don't condone software piracy on any level, no matter how you spin it. I think the MS guys are wrong in that they are using a rival's R&D to help sell their own product. That makes it, at the very least, unethical (and probably illegal). I agree with you that it would be new styles and sounds that would generate interest in the MS for me. Otherwise I'd just take my old A70 controller, a $800.00 laptop, some velcro, and free (as in pirated) styles and soundbanks, and have a nice $800 approximation of a Mediastation (well, not exactly, but it's like that Hundai Azera/Lexus ad, for the difference in $$$, you can hire someone to park it).

Just so we're clear.

chas