it's too long but it's very Intersting!..."jerrythek" is a korg Person.

PART-1

Session Start: Thu Jul 12 12:32:41 2001
[12:32] *** Now talking in #triton
[12:32] *** Topic is 'KORG TRITON - Live chat with KORG USA. No Flooding, cursing and Private messaging.'
[12:32] *** Set by Shakil on Thu Jul 12 10:39:48
[12:32] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Tapesh-
[12:32] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +o Tapesh-
[14:03] *** Joins: jerrythek (~jerryk@167.206.142.130)
[14:03] I'm telling you arvon45 it's Korg who are doing this
[14:03] I also use piano. But I want to be able to experiment with Chopin using different sounds...
[14:03] welcome
[14:03] we love you Korg
[14:04] welcome to you too!
[14:04] Welcome Jerry
[14:04] Bienvenido
[14:04] Hello Shakil
[14:04] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +o jerrythek
[14:04] okay few guys coming now from DALnet .. i told them about this server mess.
[14:04] hi jerry
[14:04] Jerry How are you doing?
[14:04] howdy
[14:04] *** Joins: X|FACTORY (~fgfg@212.72.2.160)
[14:04] hello jerry
[14:04] Fine
[14:04] Hello EVERYBODY!!!!
[14:04] welcome jerry .. thanks so much for comming.
[14:04] we're happy to have you here!
[14:04] we are so excited that you are here
[14:04] OK
[14:04] 12Hi..Thanks for joining
[14:05] let's get it started
[14:05] So, when will the screening begin?
[14:05] *** X|FACTORY is now known as TriTon|MasteR
[14:05] *** Quits: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
[14:05] Glad to be here - I've been lurking for long enough on the board to feel like I know many of you...
[14:05] *** Quits: tritonfunny (newbie@63.186.49.192) (Write Error: Broken pipe)
[14:05] we are going to change the room mode now
[14:05] It will be moderated..
[14:05] sure.. shakil..
[14:05] Thanks again Jerry!
[14:05] *** Retrieving #triton info...
[14:05] so this is your last chance to say hi to jerry
[14:06] thanks
[14:06] Hi Jerry
[14:06] 3
[14:06] 2
[14:06] Hi
[14:06] 1
[14:06] hi all
[14:06] ok..
[14:06] hi jerry, and it sounds like from your last comment you are stalking us
[14:06] lol
[14:06] ok guys noone we'll be able to talk other than ppl with @ sign and + signs next to their names
[14:06] :-)
[14:06] HI JERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[14:06] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +m
[14:06] *** Joins: G (triton@AC9E2A9C.ipt.aol.com)
[14:06] *** Joins: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com)
[14:06] *** Joins: Saturna (Saturna@pm3-164.efn.org)
[14:07] ok Guys we are in moderated mode right now
[14:07] and jerry will do some intro for you guys and answer some of the questions
[14:07] *** Joins: vanderrohe (boulez@roc-66-24-95-188.rochester.rr.com)
[14:07] OK Jerry.. all yours
[14:07] Are we ready to begin, or should we wait another few moments to let others join?
[14:08] then after that he will answer the remaining questions that you guys have left
[14:08] Jerry its all you now ...
[14:08] well... it's 5:00 PM...
[14:08] you can start introducing yourself
[14:08] OK group - first of all I want to thank you all for your obvious love, enthusiasm and emotion for your Tritons.
[14:08] It's obvious that you all care a lot and that hasn't gone unnoticed.
[14:09] And I'd like to apologize up front for Korg and Korg USA ever giving you the impression that you aren't important to us.
[14:09] Of course you are, and you have been noticed and taken into account for a while now.
[14:10] Shakil first introduced me to the site when it went up and I have been there from time to time, taking into account what you talk about.
[14:10] I could spend time explaining how small my staff really is, or how Korg has come stumbling into the Internet age (obvious, right)?
[14:11] But let me start by telling you a little about myself and what I do.
[14:11] I'm a musician myself, a jazz and rock keyboardist with a BA in Jazz Studies. So I come from the musical side and ended up in the Musical Instrument business.
[14:12] *** Joins: beans (beans@209.187.203.82)
[14:12] *** Joins: Saturna1 (Saturna@pm3-072.efn.org)
[14:12] I did a recording session in 1980 for a small little company called Casio, :-) it was a demo record for their 3rd keyboard.
[14:12] That led to years of demonstrating and voicing work, and in 1984 I took a full-time job with the advent of the CZ synths.
[14:13] Did a lot of voicing and other work, and stayed with Casio through the demise of the pro products.
[14:13] *** Joins: zaplin (~fgfg@212.72.3.107)
[14:13] I voiced the VZ synths (no easy task), and eventually was hired away from Casio by an American company called Ensoniq.
[14:13] *** Parts: arvon45 (mike9@66.72.96.250)
[14:14] I took a job there as the Director of Marketing and launched the VFX and EPS-M - it was hard to live through those times!!
[14:14] I was with Ensoniq for 8 years, through the MR-Rack, and the development but not release of the MR-61/76 and the ASR-X.
[14:15] *** Joins: arvon45 (mike9@dyn1-tnt19-218.chicago.il.ameritech.net)
[14:15] So at that point I had a good background in music, in the Japanese way, and of the full development and manufacturing of products, thanks to Ensoniq.
[14:15] *** Joins: stuart_pryer (triton@modem-87.elured.dialup.pol.co.uk)
[14:15] Came to Korg in 1996 for the launch of the N364, and the first product I developed was the SGproX.
[14:16] So what do I do as Product manager?
[14:17] From the US side I am responsible for watching out for all the activities of my "children" - every Korg keyboard, module, digital recorder, digital piano, computer cards... everything other than the ToneWorks effects and tuners/metronomes.
[14:17] I am involved in the marketing, sales, customer support, dealer training - you name it!
[14:18] That in itself is a large job, but I am also VERY involved with Korg Inc. on the strategic planning of our development, the product specifications, the voicing - you name it.
[14:18] I personally worked on voicing the MS-2000 and CX-3, while the main voicing guys were making expansion boards and the Karma.
[14:19] I help Korg Inc. contract US voicing guys and demo composers, EVERY word you see Korg put out about a product goes through us - press releases, web content, our ProView magazine, on and on.
[14:19] *** Parts: TriTon|MasteR (~fgfg@212.72.2.160)
[14:19] In the case of our beloved Triton I helped to define the spec with the team. To name the product. To oversee the voicing, the demos.
[14:20] I personally wrote a number of the dance arps. :-)
[14:20] The design of the sequencer, including the Song Templates and preset patterns included, the individual track looping etc. were all things I worked on.
[14:21] *** Parts: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com)
[14:21] Now before my head seem too big, I work with a great team of people in the US, Japan and around the world. It's not all about me! :-)
[14:21] I let you know all this background to hopefully tell you two things:
[14:21] 1) I understand your wants and needs - they are my own! I am making the toys that I want to play with as well.
[14:22] 2) I am probably the closest guy in the world to the inner workings of the developments at Korg.
[14:22] *** Joins: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com)
[14:22] That doesn't mean that I can let you in on al our secrest, though... :-)
[14:22] Oops - typing too fast!
[14:23] you are doing great Jerry..

Part II
[14:23] OK - I have been monitoring the discussions on the list so I have seen all you preparations - let's talk about some of the issues.
[14:24] Obviously we have NOT abandoned the Triton. We are fully behind it. It is our flagship synthesizer.
[14:24] Each PCM expansion board we create is a huge task for our voicing resources. Nearly equal to voicing a new synth.
[14:24] *** Joins: todd (todd305@ool-18bd7a21.dyn.optonline.net)
[14:25] We just finished the dual board Orchestral Collection EXB-PCM0607 - 32 MB of samples, 256 Programs and 256 Combinations.
[14:25] It has not yet shipped in the US, but will late this month, for a list price of $480.
[14:26] And we plan to make more boards. We want to do another dedicated piano board, we are thinking about a board of cut-up ethnic percussion data good for dance genres...
[14:26] We have a great B3 that we bought to develop the CX3, maybe a board of organ...
[14:26] *** Parts: ipi (eldiablo@200.64.192.88)
[14:26] *** Parts: Saturna (Saturna@pm3-164.efn.org)
[14:26] *** Joins: Saturna3 (Saturna@pm3-077.efn.org)
[14:27] But in regards to sound support we have been maxed out trying to develop enough boards to support the product.
[14:27] If you have up to 8 slots in a rack we assume you want WAY more than 8 boards to choose from.
[14:27] *** Parts: Saturna1 (Saturna@pm3-072.efn.org)
[14:27] And we're just getting started in this filed - Roland is far ahead of us. :-)
[14:27] And they're far larger than us, too!:-)
[14:28] *** Joins: tritonfunny (newbie@sdn-ap-009neomahP1040.dialsprint.net)
[14:28] So we are certainly active trying to support the product. But there are many other ways that you have discussed, right Arvon45? :-)
[14:29] i am sure he agrees...
[14:29] While we have not had enough resources to also be voicing new PCG data, I work with ANY valid 3rd party company to get a Triton at a great discount, or even a loaner.
[14:29] That's how Pro-Rec, and Kid Nepro and others have been able to afford to develop for the Triton.
[14:29] *** Joins: ipi (eldiablo@dup-200-64-192-101.prodigy.net.mx)
[14:30] I have personally converted their Trinity MOSS data, or Z1 MOSS data to Triton format to help them.
[14:30] So we try to encourage and facilitate 3rd parties to support us.
[14:31] Regarding sample support in native format, I have provided Tritons to MANY of the sample CD companies and urged them to go native, but I can't force them.
[14:31] Unless I were to pay them directly, right? That's beyond my financial scope.
[14:32] But as Paolo from Korg Italy mentioned the other day we do have the Triton Sampler Starter Pack that KorgNet developed, as well as the Trinity drum loops package that I made, which now has a PCG file for loading the loop into your Triton.
[14:33] I am continually surprised that the 3rd parties haven't jumped on the chance - there are 10s of thousands of Triton owners in the market, and it has to be finacially enticing. But the programming is rather deep, perhaps the loop-library people are dominating the filed.
[14:34] So as far as sounds go we have been supporting and will continue to support within our capabilities.
[14:34] *** Joins: delerium (big_dirty3@d150-17-239.home.cgocable.net)
[14:34] Let's move on now to design and OS issues - remember - this isn't one-sided - you'll get to ask me plenty of questions soon.
[14:35] #1 resampling, right?
[14:35] right...
[14:36] It can't be done. We tried - it won't work. The data "collides" in the bus and the timing is bad. No use trying to resample if the results are bad.
[14:36] The same thing affects the ability to sample while the sequencer is playing. unfortunately, the Triton was not originally designed to do these things, and only new hardware design can change that. Software can't.
[14:37] One thing that may answer a lot for all of you, is that the original target when designing the Triton was a mid-priced prelacement BELOW the trinity, to replace the trinity and N364 business.
[14:37] So a lot of design decision were based on keeping the price low.
[14:37] *** Joins: MrKorgTriton (vista500@rm01-24-29-194-172.ce.mediaone.net)
[14:38] That's why no digital I/O, and a number of other issues.
[14:38] *** Joins: Bubbleface (danrek_98@adsl-151-202-176-93.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net)
[14:38] Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at ti), we did too good of a job. We made a product that was in most ways so superior to our goal that it became the flagship.
[14:39] And so now it looks like, why didn't we go 'all the way" with the design and feature set.
[14:39] But we can't change certain aspects.
[14:39] *** Parts: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com)
[14:40] This may help to understand why we did what we did - we're not "that" stupid, but certain decisions affect your ability to do other things.
[14:40] *** Joins: Navid (~triton@ubr-33.189.12.apopkavine.cfl.rr.com)
[14:40] So after resampling let's look at Sys. Ex. in the sequencer mode.
[14:41] Funny story - but that's how I first met Shakil, remember S?
[14:41] *** Parts: tritonfun (newbie@sdn-ap-006neomahP0462.dialsprint.net)
[14:41] *** Parts: zaplin (~fgfg@212.72.3.107)
[14:41] Or maybe it's not right for me to say funny - I apologize if you all take that the wrong way.
[14:41] *** Joins: Saturna (Saturna@pm3-147.efn.org)
[14:41] *** Joins: steskilt (steskilt@mp-216-42-242.daxnet.no)
[14:42] basically Shakil called us up and read us the riot act for not being able to do it.
[14:42] *** Parts: stuart_pryer (triton@modem-87.elured.dialup.pol.co.uk)
[14:42] *** Joins: stuart_pryer (triton@modem-87.elured.dialup.pol.co.uk)
[14:43] I have been having discussions with Engineering for a while about this - Korg has NEVER had this features in any workstation so far, but we recognize the value in it. I am still hepoful that we can do it, but as you can expect I can't promise you today that it will happen for you in a new OS>
[14:43] yes.. i remember
[14:43] But I am fighting for it for you, for me, for all of us.
[14:44] As someone in the group guessed, Korg is usually very concerned about file compatibility issues, and adding this WOULD change the file format of sequences.
[14:44] But I am continually working with them to recognize that this should not be a reason not to do things.
[14:44] So I am not promising the features, but I am promising that I will continue to push for it.
[14:44] *** Parts: Saturna3 (Saturna@pm3-077.efn.org)
[14:45] And I DO have influence...
[14:45] lets hope for the best
[14:45] yeah
[14:45] There's a group of features that can best be understood by realizing what can and can't be done in a product like the Triton, vs. virtual synths.
[14:46] This relates to things like new filter designs, increased polyphony etc.
[14:46] The Triton is based around a custom ASIC chip which does many of the voice architecture issues.
[14:46] The filter design are hard-designed into the chip. The buss structure is as well.
[14:47] The only way to increase polyphony would be to change the host processor to a quicker one AND to make changes in the ASIC.
[14:47] So certain aspects of the product are 'fixed" and live in the chip design.
[14:47] *** Parts: id (~id@80.75.0.249)
[14:48] Virtual synths that basically use some "generic" DSP (Motorola, in the case of Virus etc.), the Sharc or even the NEC DSP we use in the MOSS and MS-2000 world allow a different type of design flexibility.
[14:48] And you all are already well aware of those advantages.
[14:49] But look at those products - none offer the high polyphony (for instance) of a ROM-based synth.
[14:49] *** Joins: Tokke (triton@212.233.44.55)
[14:49] So there are certain very real advantages to the custom ASIC approach. And some disadvantages.
[14:50] What's the best route for the future? It's unclear, but trust me that we are working in both directions - the OASYS project and the MS-2000 and even the CX-3 are proof that we are working the in the DSP-based world as well.
[14:50] So filter design changes are out of the question.
[14:51] OK, let's jump into probably the most heated/controversial area you have been discussing.
[14:51] AKAI handling.
[14:51] yes!!
[14:51]
[14:51] drum roll
[14:52] crash...
[14:52] First of all, I'm sorry for ANYONE's mis-interpetation of our spec, our ads, our brochures, our manuals, OK?
[14:53] ok...
[14:53] But we don't feel that we misled the public. I do understand how with "little" information one can assume, but we never promised that the Triton was or could be an AKAI library player.
[14:54] If it could, trust me, I would have trunpeted it to the heavens in my ads and materials.
[14:54] You would hae seen statements like "And use your Triton to play back ANY AKAI library, with no programming or fuss needed!"
[14:54] *** Joins: jnr (midihead@dialup-64.156.99.65.Dial1.Orlando1.Level3.net)
[14:55] We would have "run" with that feature.
[14:56] So first of all, we list AKAI as one of the sample foramts we can load - AIFF, WAV, AKAI S-1000/S-3000 and Trinity native (except for the compressed format).
[14:56] I think one of the least clear points was when we say that we can load from the Program.
[14:57] *** Joins: Saturna1 (Saturna@pm3-040.efn.org)
[14:57] This is hard to explain in short copy, but I think you all can understand what happens when you load in WAV and AIFF - you only get individual samples - no keymaps. No tuning. No relative volume.
[14:57] *** Parts: ipi (eldiablo@dup-200-64-192-101.prodigy.net.mx)
[14:58] We load from the AKAI program to be able to get these critical parameters so we can make a valid multisample.
[14:58] Again - I'm empathizing with your desire to get more. I want more too.
[14:59] When I was at Ensoniq we developed a versin 3 for the ASR-10 that loaded AKAI and Roland. Even with our sampler voice, which was better-suited to these formats than the Triton we found many problems playing back libraries.
[15:00] Especially the better-programmed ones which more fully used the voice architecture of the AKAI.
[15:00] So we redesigned our voice in the MR-Rack to accomodate this much desired spec.
[15:00] When I came to korg it was one of the first big topics we spent time discussing. How to someday get the Korg voice to that place...
[15:01] Today we are not there. We need a voice that allows for individual layers which can have their own filter and EG settings, and may more of them than we allow.
[15:02] It's REALLY difficult to try to approximate that with some automated routine that creates maltiple Programs and automatically place them into Combis to try to get there.
[15:02] This is one area where I agree with the caution of korg Inc.
[15:02] I've seen many of you talk about just getting what we can. But that leads to a more overt deception of you, our users.
[15:03] It means that we say we CAN load AKAI Program/parameter data, but only sometimes. And not always with a consistent success rate.
[15:03] We don't want to promise something that works "shakily" at best.
[15:04] u mean like me?.... jk
[15:04] So we do what we set out to do - get either the samples, or a multisample from the format.
[15:05] And we offered this right from the beginning, not with Version 2. Version 2 added better handling of the S-3000 format, and of stereo multisamples, but we offered this from the start.
[15:05] :-) Just saw your joke Shakil!
[15:05] u on your roll Jerry..
[15:05] One more short topic then we'll open it up, I've been hogging the bandwidth for a while now.
[15:06] We HAVE been offering OS updates. Version 2 was MAJOR, and it was not "done" when we launched. It was planned, but not executed. It took a lot of work form a few dedicated programmer to realize, and it added a lot to the sampler.
[15:06] Remember, before the Triton the last sampler Korg has made was the DSS-1!!!
[15:07] Since Version 2 we have responded to user bug reports with a number of smaller OS issues, and we of course will continue to do so.
[15:07] If you can report a repeatable problem we'll do our best to fix it.
[15:08] And version 2.1 added export of Triton samples to WAV or AIFF, which opens up the world of even more powerful editors for you to use.
[15:08] *** Quits: Aryan (aryan@bb-62-5-49-100.bb.tninet.se) (Quit: What a night ........ I have dream that one day Iranian stand by each others side)
[15:08] *** Parts: Aryan (aryan@bb-62-5-49-100.bb.tninet.se)
[15:08] So we are still "behind" the product and supporting it. Not in all the ways you would like, but we're trying. And we've been monitoring this group and others to understand what our users want and need.
[15:09] *** Parts: PALL (triton@210.56.19.127)
[15:09] Ethnic Exp
[15:09]
[15:09] So before this get's boring, let's open it up. try to ask me first about topics I've started to discuss, then we could move on to other issues, OK?
[15:09] ok guys..
[15:10] Jerry.. that was good.. thanks,
[15:10] Ethnic Expansion? I already mentioned the dance-oriented ideas. An Ethnic board also makes good sense.
[15:10] yeah
[15:10] Tapesh.. can you describe to the Group how can they get in row to ask questions
[15:11] ok guys now if you have questions to ask jerry plz msg me and just say question in your msg and I'll let you guys to talk to jerry 2 at a time
[15:11] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +v arvon45
[15:11] *** Parts: Saturna (Saturna@pm3-147.efn.org)
[15:11] Hi guys
[15:11] Hi arvon
[15:11] Id like to say thanks to jerry for coming out here today
[15:11] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +v vanderrohe
[15:11] its nice of korg to come out of hiding
[15:11] Hi Arvon, I';ve been axpecting you :-)
[15:12] concerning the resampling, you say that it is possible to read parameters
[15:12] but it's "shaky" at best
[15:12] you mean the AKAI samples..?
[15:12] bmy point is isnt that better than the akai reading the way it is currently?
[15:12] Well, this is about AKAI reading, not resampling.
[15:12] er I mean akai reading
[15:13] right on
[15:13] Hi Jerry. Thanks so much for this opportunity.
[15:13] you ther ejerry?
[15:13] I did not say that it's possible to read all the parameters. basically in the AKAI voice each Layer has parameters associated with it, and then the total program has more. We don't have that voice scenario to begin with.
[15:14] what would you call current akai reading in triton?
[15:14] certainly its more shaky than an inconsistent akai reading ability?
[15:14] OK guys.. let's try to make is 'productive'.
[15:14] Id rather get the reading right 50 percent of the time than not at all
[15:15] So we could get the total program Filter and envelope, and perhaps some aspect of the LFO, but we would not get the layer offsets and parameters. So it would not likely give you the result you want.
[15:15] I'd call our reading the ability to import in multisamples from Akai, no more.
[15:15] Can we expect to import single layer AKAI programs?

Part III-
[15:16] *** Tapesh- sets mode: +v tritonfunny
[15:16] In terms of the fixed hardware issues you were talking about before, what about a upgraded ASIC chip? Many of us who are willing to spend hundreds on expansion boards would probably be willing to spend that much on increased functionality across the board.
[15:16] *** Tapesh- sets mode: -v arvon45
[15:16] I fully understand your desired to "get what we can" but again, it would likely be so hit and miss that I think we would be more decptive.
[15:16] is vanderrohe next?
[15:16] Vanderrohe, let me finish with the Akai stuff first. I want to be sure you get full answrers here.
[15:16] oh ok
[15:17] I do agree with Arvon here though, I would love to see more akai support even if it isn't fully compatible
[15:18] TAPESH- ok... let's change it to only one person asking question at a time..
[15:18] So I can't promise anything further with AKAI reading, but again I will continue to look at it with Engineering. They have seen your list and will see this discussion - if we find that we are able to do something more productive/effective perhaps we can. But you know that I;m in the position of not being able to make you any promises.
[15:18] ok Shakil
[15:18] after vander is done is only one at a time
[15:18] ok
[15:19] What we really need is a voice that has been designed to do this. You know, Kurzweil is in the same position we are - I huess I should spend more time seeing how their community lives with it.
[15:19] But seriously, both Roland and yamaha have voice architectures which are closer to the sampler design. Thsat's why they can offer it.
[15:19] Jerry... kurzweil users are too busy programmig with VAST , than to load AKAI... plus they have huge kurzweil libraries
[15:20] Well - triton owners can be just as busy programming as well, right? I don't profess to having a voice as deep as VAST, but we are no slouches.
[15:21] i agree..
[15:22] Again - I want to have better AKAI loading, I want korg to offer you the best and most for your music. This issue WAS the first topic we starting discussing when I came aboard...
[15:22] More?
[15:22] great!!.. let's move on.
[15:22] I asked already, but I can post again if you'd like.
[15:22] ok go ahead vanderrohe
[15:22] In terms of the fixed hardware issues you were talking about before, what about a upgraded ASIC chip? Many of us who are willing to spend hundreds on expansion boards would probably be willing to spend that much on increased functionality across the board.
[15:23] OK - i just re-read. That's a hard one. It takes over two years to develop, debug and implement a new ASIC design. And after that effort we would want it to be able to offer us as many new features and possibilities.es
[15:24] So to do what you suggest would mean we would have to limit many aspects to stay compatible with the data I/O required by the current mainboard, while we did some other fixes.
[15:25] Although, admitedly, the architecture wouldn't need to be designed from the ground up, correct?
[15:25] vanderrohe Ihave to take u off cuz we have lot more questions in the line.. u can go back in the line again by msging me.. sorry for doing so ..
[15:25] Maybe we'd get new filter, but we couldn't increase the ROM/RAM memory addresses. or added more busses or I/O... it's all intertwined and becomes difficult.


MORE TO COME.