Hi Folks,
I thought this interesting and would like to know how you folks feel. With the ability of most boards to play midi files, you can book gigs and fake playing out the Ying yang. Does this upset any of the folks that actually play? However, if you can't sing to save your life or someone you actually care about, thanks to all the vocal effects you can sound like the next American Idol? Is the talent to actually play and sing still viable or do folks depend on the ignorance of the general public.... As for me, vocals, I use no other effect than a bit of reverb. And when playing the keys I record the performance before-hand and play usually right handed parts, (Trumpet, string, flute) during performance, after all I sing much better than I play. However, if everyone can sound good singing with effects, what's the point??? By the way I use my keyboard for more than this. I like to compose originals, one track at a time. I like to arrange more than play. What do you folks think? Technolgy is great, but to what end?

BB,
IMO.......a person who fakes performances, like Millie Vanille (or whoever they were) will meet with the same end.

Performance is based on a whole lot more and needs more than playing midifiles like a Karaoke machine.

A set that relies on this method only won't last very long at all, unless this is the crowd type you are playing to.

As an amendment to this I should also add, it really depends on what it is you are trying to acheive as an entertainer and who your audience is.
Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-27-2002).]

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. I play midi files in my act through my PSR2000, but remove all the keyboard parts so I can play them live myself. Doing this, I do not feel as if I'm selling out at all. In live situations, I find people are quite impressed with the fact that the song being played sounds "just like the original". Can't quite understand the fuss, but nevertheless, I find it to be the case in almost every live situation. Again, just my opinion...

Angelo

Just like any job, you have to use the right tools to perform the job. The arranger supplies a vast array of tools. It is up to the performer to pick and choose all the right tools that are available to them. In this case the tools are free to use. If I wanted to sound the same without midi I would have to hire 3-6 sidemen to perform the task, and I would still only be performing one part of the song.

Using the arranger and some midi arrangements, I can please a larger variety of the audience and keep the price reasonable. The only downside is you put a lot of sidemen out of work. The musicians union used to make us charge extra for a rhythm machine, since it was putting drummers out of work. The extra charge helped level the playing field. Along came the dj's with their records with no musical ability and put us all out of work. Now we are able to compete them for jobs we lost.

Regards,

Jerry

I've basically STOPPED 'playing along' with midi files all together, except for only a very FEW songs.

Nothing BEATS playing 100% LIVE in 'arranger mode' because it offers MUCH more excitement & energy when you're playing (the KB with BOTH hands), singing, and triggering multi pad riffs, fills, and instrument setups 'on the fly'. I find that 'playing along' to a midi file really "LOCKS me in a BOX"; while playing in full arranger mode allows me to be much more spontaneously creative: triggering 'on the fly' key modulation, tempo changes, variation changes, chord substitions, adding additional chorus', etc, etc, etc. All these skills (to me) separate a talented arranger keyboard performer from a karaoke singer who performs with backup tapes, or someone who 'plays along' with a pre-sequenced midi file. I don't want to knock these other performance alternatives, but since this is an 'arranger' keyboard forum, I hope to PROMOTE arranger keyboard 'PLAYING' to the fullest! Being able to play an arranger keyboard is one thing, but to fully utilize its potential in a live interactive manner takes special skill that 'sets it apart' from all other forms of music performance. I hope we all continue to work on furthering our unique arranger playing skills, which in turn will raise the level of respect we get from our fellow traditional musicians, as well as the listening public. - Scott

Well said, Scott.
DonM

I find this topic very interesting.

I give you solo performers all the credit in the world. I don't think it matters whether you play to midi tracks or play with a style. The point is, you are out there by yourself putting it all on the line. I do think most audiences are pretty savvy and can smell out a cheezy performance. If the midi tracks suck or the vocalist sounds like Bill Murray from SNL, they aren't going to buy the performance.

I personally play in an Oldies band doing Temptation, Box Tops, etc. covers with 3 male singers and 4 musicians so they cover my arse bigtime if I screw up.

My role in the band is to arrange the performances and play the fluff; the intro piano piece, the sax solos, string parts, B3 hammond solo's, and brass/horn parts. I do this with both a Korg Triton and a Yammy Psr 9000 which I have since sold.

I midi the Korg and the 9000 together so that I can switch between the 9000 as a controller for the Korg samples since I can make ultra swift registration and voice changes with the 9000 and the 76 keys of the Triton to play more larger range pieces.

I use the 9000 arranger features at home in the studio to rehearse my parts and to fool around with creating and composing, not to mention entertaining family and friends.

To all you solo artists, Rock on!!

Rgs,
Al

Great stuff guys,
I just thought it would be an interesting topic since the new boards are only going to do more and more. My hat is off to all who can fly by the seat of their pants. I can fly after a twelve pack and an all night jam session, but ususally by then I'm missing my pants.



------------------
I don't steer the ship, I bail out the water.

I agree with ScottYee 100%...
I would not play to midifile simply cause its no fun for me, but even if I wanted to I could not do so for the type of music and audience I have because I have to go NON STOP from on song to another and play a whole set together...in which case I cant do with midi.

More over, I do improvise alot (sometimes I will repeat a verse twice or three times if I am in the mood), so Midi is not good in this case cause I would have to follow what has been sequenced already.

Nothing better than being "bussier than a pussycat on hot cole"

I've been performing as a solo artist since WAY before arrangers or midi were introduced. I played straight piano(Rhodes) first, then added Moog bass(left hand) then a drum machine and finally, when midi was introduced ... I layered a synth with a second sound for my right hand "color" sounds while keeping a dedicated keyboard for piano parts.

This lasted till the arrangers finally put good sounding drum machines in the keyboards. after that ... I slimmed down to just one keyboard, but still played all the bass and piano parts live to the rhythm machine looped patterns.
At first - the idea of using an "oom paa" (arranger) backing was unacceptable to me, but slowly, the patterns got better and better .... so I caved and used a few at a time. I spaced them out and used the arranger sparingly.

With the advent of midi ...many players started using sequences to add the hands that they could not provide, and give them a competitive edge with guys like me - that could get a party dancing with just MY hands. Well ................ the midi sounds got better and better, and pretty soon, the accepted "norm" in the trenches (clubs and parties) included at least at SOME level ... midi backing tracks. This was all taking place at the same time that the "K" word was being introduced from Japan. The K-Jays were getting about $300 or more per show to just emcee the night. Made me sad ... but I still worked the same schedule. 5 and 6 night a week and lots of afternoon parties and studio sessions. DJ's only hurt the bad musicians, or bad business people.

If you were a singer or guitarist in the 70's and 80's working clubs and eeking out a living ..... it became almost impossible as the 90's drew near. Bands were downsized to fit the diminishing budgets in the rooms and rising insurance rates due to DUI laws kept the clubs from paying a lot for live music. The returns just weren't there. At least at a "K" show .... people came in. Granted - they act like morons, but they DO fill the seats.

My point is this:

Many fine singers, drummers, guitarists etc. that used to work a lot were out of work all of a sudden due to downsizing. What do you do if you are the piano player in a 5 piece band? You play piano right? Do you play everyone else's parts too? NO.
I see nothing wrong with playing YOUR instrument to the capacity you are able, along with accompaniments by either live musicians, midi tracks or arranger patterns.

I see no difference in the validity of the performance.

My people come to see me make a show.
I make parties.
I set tempos.
I pick WHAT to do and WHEN.
I get paid to keep the action rolling.
I sometimes use arranger patterns, sometimes manual bass and drums, sometimes midi sequences, and sometimes I use custom made audio tracks from my studio with backing vocals and extra instruments. All these tools provide me with a means to an end. They allow me to express my creative talents to make a show.
Pushing fill-ins and selecting variations takes as much time, energy and expertise as it does to play creative, two fisted parts on a kb while a sequence plays the rest of the band's parts. Just like we ALL used to do when we had live playing members in the band. Remember bands?????

I miss playing funky clav parts to disco and R&B tunes. It's much more authentic and energetic if I sequence the backing tracks and play my ass off on the D6 or the Rhodes. Even when I play bass ... I can manage to get the groove happenin' with just those 2 hands, but it's harder to make a full sound because SOMETHING is always left out.

I like arrangers. I like sequences. I like simple piano chords. In short ......

I

Like

Music.

I like playing it, and I like the people to like LISTENING and DANCING to it.
I find that mostly - senior audiences are the quickest to accept a "canned" arrangement of a song, while the younger crowds definitely respond to the sequences more. I am STILL working the keys and the crowd ... but in a different way.

My basic rule of thumb is this:

If it WORKS .... keep doing it.

So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor.
Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like.

Today's music is getting more and more "signature" specific with certain riffs and catch phrases that make it impossible for an arranger pattern to do justice to the song. If your crowd is over 40 (55 really) .... you have a shot at acceptance using arranger patterns, but the younger people see it as "hokey" and sophmorish.
I tend to agree. In low volume settings, especially. Sequences are lame when played softly. They need the energy from the movement of air, since there is NO one sending the energy into the performance at THAT specific moment.

In many cases - I'd rather play a left hand bass line and right hand chords to a drum beat than use a generic, overused pattern that sounds like every other player that owns a PA80. I like that intimate, small combo sound that only manual bass can provide. There is much more energy and "groove" when the piano and bass are in sync. For bigger sound - the sequence is the winner. The arranger fits somewher in between the two. (easy fellas ....... it's just MY views)

To summarize ....... there is NOTHING fake about using backing patterns, tracks, sequences, or whatever - as long as YOU are in control of the performance and you are playing YOUR part along with it. If you want to be a "front person" - that's OK too ... just don't fake it on dead keys. Get out in front and sing to the clients. They are VERY used to that concept.
Playing arrangers is a shortcut to a good sound, but it should not be a DESTINATION to aspire to. Use these tools to help you learn how to put it all together .... then go do it ! The important thing is energy. That comes from hard work Learn the parts !

UD,

Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Ang

What if you don't like the styles on your arranger. You can with some effort make your own but since Yamaha for instance don't really encourage you to do that it gets difficult. So you use Band-in-a-Box or Jammer to generate a few extra styles. Is that cheating? I don't think so, especially not for the solo performer. As Uncle Dave says, we're making music and anything that adds to the performance is always welcome.

We can always count on good insight from the "players" on this board ... good job
... I'l add my cent and a half
UD ...."So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor.
Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like."

Man ... were you at our office 'holiday' party last Friday nite?!? ... That's EXACTLY what was happening ... I have some respect for DJ's because there are some who can really work a crowd ... But these 2 guys were nothing more than CD spinners, and as long as they kept a certain 5 young ladies on the floor, nothing else mattered ... and when they DID play a ballad, or even some of the 'older' RnR, the floor was packed ... but then ...?!?!... back to the 'barefoot 5'
.."I see nothing wrong with playing YOUR instrument to the capacity you are able, along with accompaniments by either live musicians, midi tracks or arranger patterns.
I see no difference in the validity of the performance."
Again.. right on .... after working with a "General Business" band for 26 yrs, and then moving to a different state, I had to take a different approach to playing 'gigs' (there's that word UD!!!) ... In fact I didn't play out for about 7 years ... When I started again I cut down to solo work, playing accoustic piano and using a Roland drum machine as back up to my vocals...
Then, in '92 I bought my first 'arranger' .. a kn1000 .... It took me quite a while to accept the fact that the kb was providing so much background ... I wrestled with the "am I playing or is it the kb" thing for some time ... And the I came to the realization that people were paying me to ENTERTAIN!!! .. Whether I did it with a kb, spun discs, stood on my head and played 10 instruments at one time, IT DIDN"T MATTER, as long as they were entertained and had a good time ...

Scott, I agree that as a performer, playing LIVE, utilizing all our talents and all the facilities of our kb creates a lot of energy and excitement ... but I think sometimes thatis more for the performer than the audience ... Don't get me wrong, I think the audience feels and reacts to the energy we create, but can they appreciate what it takes for us to do it?? ... especially in larger crowds, I tend to doubt it ....

As for midis... Well I think the arrangement for certain songs is what the crowd is looking for and will respond to, so there are some tunes that I will use midis for ... However, in small venues, I have no problem taking an otherwise 'highly orchestrated' tune, and cutting it down to a trio or quartet style, played 'on the fly' ....

Whatever our personal situation, I believe each of us has to feel that, however we do it, we are giving the customer what they are paying for, and take great satisfaction that we are able to do that...
And all be Thankful for the talents given to us...
... just keep making beautiful music ...
t.

Good point. I also think it's a good idea for sequence users to "thin out" sequences for smaller parties too. Most of the time, I like to strip the horns and guitar parts, so it's a nice, small combo sound that leaves me plenty of room to comp on the changes.
I have some thick ones and some thin ones of the same title .... same arragement, just smaller files . Makes for a more "logical" approach to a more intimate sound.

Final point - Sequences, arrangers, whatever ......... they ALL need the human element to make them shine. To paraphrase another member ....( )


Shine on.......

There is so much that can be said on this subject. I'll try to point out my own feelings as well as problems...
My entire career in music consisted of singing. Yes the front man I was and loved every minute of it. We opened for many big acts such as Billy Joel to Stewart. Was on the road quite a bit during the 70s and 80s. The nineties started building my own little studio, as bands were too hard to keep together. (As you all know)
Today I enjoy writing, recording and playing my own material but I can't play well at all. (Really). Most of the instruments in my studio consist of KBs and sound modules that create movement, which aid me in my writing. I respect and envy many of my fellow members who can play well, and I know there are many of you.
So... my problem is, that I would love to play out, even a very small gig, but the only way I could do that is to utilize midis that I create. I would be able to add some live additions though. So why don't I do it.... Well one reason I feel that I would be selling myself a little short and would not want to be looked at like some out there look at us playing arranger keyboards. Please feel free to voice your thoughts.
Regards to all...Lou

Lou,
I wouldn't worry about how you are perceived by the public. 95% of them do not know the difference, whether you are playing live, using midi files or using the arranger functions. Do whatever is necessary for you to do the show, but still inject yourself into it.
DonM

Don, Thanks for your imput. I know your out there and know what they expect. Is it really like that on a small job?
Lou

Look at the "American Idol" .... all they did was sing, and someone payed them big bucks to do it ! The public is comfortable with singers out front. Speech is easy to identify with, but not everyone can play an instrument ! get out there and SING !

UD,
Thanks, maybe I should stop worring about how the crowd would except, and rely on what I feel I have to offer.
Lou

I agree, keep it real... BTW, just what are those vocal effects?

Donny: My attitude has nothing to do with being a purist, but merely holding the standards of musicial honesty and integrity. Please watch this 'must see':

WMV (video) clip

of which clearly demonstrates what I so disrespect! This video was sent to SZ member Heikki Kahkola (aka the wolf) by purported some pro musician entertainer by the name of Johnny, in Silkborg, Dennmark. Accompying the video clip, Johnny wrote this:

"Hello again

The video was taken saturday in Silkeborg
I did not play anything I faked to your midi
and waughh people liked it..

greetings..

Johnny"

Not only did this guy (without permission rip off Heikki's midi file song performance), but had the nerve to attempt to give his audience the impression he was actually playing it live too.

Scott

Despite the well-thought-out responses, we have to keep in mind that they are all coming from people that play arranger keyboards. I'm sure that if this were a non-arranger keyboard forum, you'd get quite a different set of opinions. Who'd be right? Nobody. Let's be honest. We're all constantly trying to justify our actions, validate our approach to music, even when nobody gives a damn. You want the truth? Name your ten favorite keyboard players. How many play arranger keyboard? But back to the original question. Are you faking it? The answer....some are, some aren't. If your intent is to deliberately deceive, whether or not ENTERTAINMENT is your goal, then yes, you are faking it. Of course, you don't need an arranger keyboard to do that, any old KB will do. So for me, "faking it" is 10% action and 90% intent. As a pilot, am I faking it when I shoot a perfect approach (in weather) with my very sophistocated auto-pilot? Do I get credit for operating the hell out of my auto-pilot? My passengers think so . The plane owner without an auto-pilot thinks differently. Soooo, tell me what answer you want, I'll tell you which forum to visit.

chas

Chas said "Name your ten favorite keyboard players."

Not in any order:
Uncle Dave
Donny
Scott
Gary
Eddie
Fran
Al
AJ
DanO
Nick
Frank
Hank
Tom
Semi
All the Tonys
Eric
Robert
Flavie
Mike
Craig
Dorantes
Genesys
John
Peter
Paul
Mary
KF
KFC
Squeakster
Spalding
McGregor
Starkeeper
Starship
Vadim
Esh
Glen
Rikki
Dikki
Tikki
Tim
Lou
Jorgen
Bob Gelman
Dennis
Ian
Taike
Wolfie
Jerry
Terry
Chas
Charles
Charlie
Chuck
Chony
Cousin Ken
Mr. Ed
Mr. Fred
Freddie
Fredrick
Angelo (all of them)
Notlos
Dreamer
Tyrosman
Russ
NIGEL
Pose
Miden
Jimmy
Bebop
BBum
Boo
Bo
Bah
28 more guys you don't know, and 37 who I DO know and can't think of off the top of my head.
Wait, you said 10. I know I've left a lot of them out, but ALL these guys play arrangers.

DonM

I'm really old, and the rest of the names will appear in my brain as soon as I hit submit.



[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 08-16-2006).]

What Keyboard is that ?

Its human-accompaniment feature really lacks!

DonM don't you think it's bad enough having X Factor and American Idol without turning Synthzone into a contest...
Everyone has a different favourite player on here because each individuals taste in music is different. Why don't we all just appreciate each other for a change for what we all post for others to listen to and leave it at that?
Some players also sing, others don't or can't....

Craig, my point was I like ALL the arranger players. No contest at all. Trying to lighten it up not tighten it up, my friend.
Besides, you're on the list!
:}
Maybe I'd better delete if it's going to cause a fuss. There are more than enough of those already.
DonM

DonM, no need to delete. I think most of us got it. In fact, I appreciate those among us that don't take ourselves too seriously. Heck, even I don't believe half of what I say .

chas

PS. love the reference to the brain clicking on after the fact....happens to me quite regularly these days.

mmm...usually I stay away from these " sensitive" topics but I go on a holiday so what the h'ck.

I think it is a non issue.
It doesn't matter at all whether you are faking, playing real time, playing partly realtime or whatever.
You are there to entertain your audience, because that's where they paid their money for. No matter how you do it!

You don't perform for the maybe "one" musician who "might" be in the audience.

Personally I prefer any full live band over any live playing arranger keyboardist and I prefer any live playing keyboardist over a midiplayer, that's not the issue... but there's a good reason why some dj's are doing very well.. They have a good show!
(and are payed extremely well)

This is my personal opinion so it is not an attack to anybody..

Fred

(I really love DON's comment )

Faking is never good.
It doesn't become better if you use the word "playbacking" for it, but the reasons you want to do that are different. If you are recording a videoclip fi your "playbacking" has a sensible purpose - if you pretend playing while you let the keyboard play a midifile without any contribution to it (like doing a great dance ) I would call it "faking".
If you use a midifile and still play along with it - for instance on another keyboard - you are also performing.
There are performances who interact with midifiles - changing the result with realtime actions on stage. That is performing too!
But if you play a midifile and PRETEND you are playing... I would call that faking, even when you made the midifile yourself.

If I play Love Boat I use multipads to add to my playing because I cannot play a countermelody at the same time as I do the main melody. But I am still performing because I play the main melody. And it is even risky, because if I press the wrong padbutton (or my timing is wrong) I am in a lot of trouble. (I use all 4 pads for the countermelody)
of course I programmed the multipads, but people think it is part of the style.
Of course some people think I programmed the style as well ..... I wish I did!!

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 08-14-2006).]

Thanks for this very inspiring video. What I espescially like about it, is that in the short time you can see his hands, it is obvious he doesn't even try to hide that he is not playing at all.
The guy who held the camera knew what he was doing, showing the garbage containers in the background

I'm honored and very proud to be on Don Mason's list of top players--a feather in my cap!

Thanks Don,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

The last thread on this topic to which I replied a couple months ago was deleted. Why bump this one up from 4 years ago? IF my answer as well as the answers of others were worth deleting then....Heck with it! SO basically I'm writing to say that I'm not going to write anything.

Hi Rory, I REMEBER that posting thread well, and equally upset that your posting (as well as the entire thread) was deleted by our forum administrator. I'm afraid my reply (concuring with your opinion) got deleted as well, all because Nigel decided to remove the ENTIRE thread, just because of the 'few jerks' here posted offending remarks on that same thread. I feel a lot better at least knowing that there are a few among us here who share our sentiments over: faking performance. Perhaps there's hope for musicianship & integrity afterall. - Scott

My sentiments exactly. I've mentioned this before but FWIW, I use about 6 midi files out of 120 or so songs in our repertoire.

I agree with Uncle Dave's posts more than I thought I could ever possibly agree with anyone!

In my duo I work almost entirely with midi-files.

I don't feel bad about that, because they are either programmed by me (either in total or in part), or I have scoured all the internet - (general sites, or exclusive midi-forums) and METICULOUSLY tweaked them, part by part, effect by effect, note by note if need be, to sound EXACTLY like the popular recorded version.
I then wipe all keyboard parts I can play myself, and then play and sing the hell out of the song. As UD says, we have to also continuously scan the ever changing mood of the crowd and keep them on the floor with such a diverse range of genres it's ridiculous.

And crack gags whenever we can!

Sometimes I grab a tambourine or other light percussion (I'm a formally trained drummer as well) and go to town with a great rhythm and lead vocal "frontman performance".

My wife either sings harmony, plays electric guitar (with a cosm amp - changing sounds as style dictates) or then takes over lead vocals (she's a MUCH better singer than me).

We do this almost entirely to Midi backing like I said (occasionally I use the arranger for Old Time Dancing).

We are continually in demand.
We are professionals (no day jobs).
We don't feel like cheats.

Uncle Dave rock on!

Hellboy.....nice post.... there are many acts around here like yours that are very successful around here in the casinos & elsewhere.....in today's world we have all the tools & they are meant to be used in many ways to entertain the masses.

Playing Live is the Best(i mean, when you have a drummer, bassist, guitaris,t etc)
But playing live on the arranger is not that Live,(only the right hand) because what you'r doing pretty much is just "inputing" chords, to a music style that wasn't made by you.
I used to think that its better to play with style and that its the right way, but not any more, there are people sweating hours to make a backing track( a god one) or a midi file, and people can say: Ah, Its not live, everyone can play live, paly for beginning to the end and your done. But try to record a midi file, not everyone can do it, beacuse not too many people try hard enough.
But Faking playing to someone alses work is the worse, it should be illegal.

[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 08-14-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vadim:
[B]Playing Live is the Best(i mean, when you have a drummer, bassist, guitaris,t etc)
But playing live on the arranger is not that Live,(only the right hand) because what you'r doing pretty much is just "inputing" chords, to a music style that wasn't made by you.

When I play an arranger keyboard I have two hand that are playing live not one, just like the organ players do.

“Faking a performance” – That’s a bit hard. I would like to keep the subject in three categories;
1-Playing music 2-Entertaining for $$$ 3-The fakers.

2-Entertaining for $$$;
If you are getting paid you do whatever you must do to do the job. When I had my music store I sold a lot of accordions, made good money. When accordions started to fade out it took me a while to wake up and get into the guitar phase. You must go with the flow or you lose. Loyalty or being a purist does not pay the bills.

1-Playing music; This is the part I love, it’s the reason I got into the music business. I love to play as live as it is possible and still keep like a full sounding group. I try and duplicate what I had when I had my own band.

3-The fakers; Well if they have any talent they’ll never know.

IMHO, John C.

Nice post Vadim. I totally agree that not everyone can program midi files, that's why there are so many bad ones on the net and available to buy from companies who seem to push out any trash just to get rich.
I enjoy doing backing tracks for singers and groups on my PC and have done now for the past 17 years. Many singers can't play an instrument so they need good quality backing to bring their performances to life. I've been in bands, played on the organ circuit since I was 11 until 17 and I'm now a solo keyboard player, however I don't use any of my own backing tracks (not midi tracks, these are recorded as real audio files with real guitar parts played by me) and I would never consider using a SMF, but that's jsut me. I'd rather play 100% live and create my own interpretation of a song. I don't want to sound like any other keyboard player, I like my own style of playing so why be a carbon copy of someone else or just take the easy route out and fake to a midi entirely or just play a lead part over something pre-recorded.
Midi will always be used and if it gets people work then good, but those who have to mime entirely over the top are nothing more than a poor excuse for an artiste and will get caught out sooner or later

you lot for got to add me to your top 10 of players guys i mean a real players like scott we dont even play midi files we do it all live guys opps & also pose &craig uk

[This message has been edited by tyrosman (edited 08-15-2006).]

if someone is using an arranger, then, they are certainly using midi files..that is, as people would know, is how the arranger files are recorded...as a whole lot of repeating small midi files....so what's the difference playing arranger "midi files", playing them using left hand for chords/ bass and right hand for comping/soloing...OR a set midi file with drums and other fill instruments playing, whilst you play bass/chords with your left hand and comping/ soloing with right hand???? NONE NADA NIX NYET, apart from the fact arranger midi files repeat continuously, whereas the midi file has a fixed length....so on that basis and according to some arguments put forward on this thread,both methods are cheating..... .....personally i do not believe its cheating..the only way there is no cheating is if you have a guitar player, bass player, drummer, singer.....you get the picture

If you think about it, assuming you're going for a band-type arrangement, what's the difference? YOU'RE still not doing those parts. In fact, you're not even providing those left-hand chords that drive the accompaniment. This has all been said before, I'm sure. Cheating/not cheating; just depends on you point of view. We all know that 10 Synthzoners are good for at least 11 opinions.

chas

Most certainly did include you. You must have overlooked your name on my list. Go look again.
:}
DonM

Either my scrollin finger is over-fatigued or that list of Don's is getting longer each day.

Miden & Cgiles.....

spot on replies
agreed!!

I always liked playing with live musicians and my DX7 (and sometimes a real Fenderpiano), but I was the one who had to do the arrangements - I can do it, but I am not a professional and ik takes me a long time. And then the rehearsing..oh, yeah, we all had jobs so it was difficult to get together.
The fact is that when it became too hard I stopped arranging, stopped rehearsing and stopped playing altogether.
I needed a backingtrack - ok, why not do it on the computer. Well, I did for a while, but it takes a long time to make one.
My main reason to buy an arranger keyboard was ... to play again. It took me a year to get back to the skills I had when I left off about 10 years earlier.

Making a midifile and play with it could work, but I want a certain freedom too when I play; do an extra round of improvising when I feel like it and maybe even change chords. I like that freedom. Playing with breaks and vary the variations.
Point is, I am performing. If you have real live musicians behind you, they are performing too - that doesn't make MY performance any better.
I am even busier performing with an arranger, because when I played with a group I could rest while others, saxophone player or guitarist, took the stage with their improvisations. Now I have to be on my toes the whole song and pressing buttons (on time!) as well.

I could take a rest and fake playing, but that is cheap.
What about this: "And now for something I prepared earlier", start the midifile, leave the keyboard and watch it from the bar I am sure the audience will like that as a joke .... You can ask them while your keyboard "gently weeps"
And maybe ask a few nice girls to dance to your midifile.



[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 08-15-2006).]

One thing that has not been mentioned when playing with the "dreaded" "awful" "fake" SMF (which sounds awesome if you have talent, and the right keyboard (i.e. sound source).

I play gigs where the "just like the record" sound is a big advantage for 2 types of audience.

1. Professional/semi-professional dancers (Ballroom, Rock n Roll, Latin etc) who are often used to rehearsing their routines to "Canned music" - CD's of course - and we go to great lengths to reproduce these arrangements live.

2. Young people who are in fact quite discerning (and at the same time - boring) in the fact they want the music/arrangement/production/quality of sounds to be JUST like the record (or re-mix on occasion which we also cater for).

My point?

There is an "art" or perhaps "discipline" to playing along to EXACT and STRICT sequences, instead of doing the arrangement how you feel at the time.
We have to remember (or at least use lyric/chord sheets) the EXACT song arrangement for, what, half a dozen different Genres (Jazz, Top 40, Latin Rock n Roll Country etc etc).

That ain't easy!

2 cents deposited.

Peter Paul & Mary? Keyboard players?
They faked me out!


and Don, you have to "learn to like yourself 1st".


[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-15-2006).]

Uncle Dave wrote:....--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been performing as a solo artist since WAY before arrangers or midi were introduced. I played straight piano(Rhodes) first, then added Moog bass(left hand) then a drum machine and finally, when midi was introduced ... I layered a synth with a second sound for my right hand "color" sounds while keeping a dedicated keyboard for piano parts.
This lasted till the arrangers finally put good sounding drum machines in the keyboards. after that ... I slimmed down to just one keyboard, but still played all the bass and piano parts live to the rhythm machine looped patterns.
At first - the idea of using an "oom paa" (arranger) backing was unacceptable to me, but slowly, the patterns got better and better .... so I caved and used a few at a time. I spaced them out and used the arranger sparingly.

With the advent of midi ...many players started using sequences to add the hands that they could not provide, and give them a competitive edge with guys like me - that could get a party dancing with just MY hands. Well ................ the midi sounds got better and better, and pretty soon, the accepted "norm" in the trenches (clubs and parties) included at least at SOME level ... midi backing tracks. This was all taking place at the same time that the "K" word was being introduced from Japan. The K-Jays were getting about $300 or more per show to just emcee the night. Made me sad ... but I still worked the same schedule. 5 and 6 night a week and lots of afternoon parties and studio sessions. DJ's only hurt the bad musicians, or bad business people.

If you were a singer or guitarist in the 70's and 80's working clubs and eeking out a living ..... it became almost impossible as the 90's drew near. Bands were downsized to fit the diminishing budgets in the rooms and rising insurance rates due to DUI laws kept the clubs from paying a lot for live music. The returns just weren't there. At least at a "K" show .... people came in. Granted - they act like morons, but they DO fill the seats.

My point is this:

Many fine singers, drummers, guitarists etc. that used to work a lot were out of work all of a sudden due to downsizing. What do you do if you are the piano player in a 5 piece band? You play piano right? Do you play everyone else's parts too? NO.
I see nothing wrong with playing YOUR instrument to the capacity you are able, along with accompaniments by either live musicians, midi tracks or arranger patterns.

I see no difference in the validity of the performance.

My people come to see me make a show.
I make parties.
I set tempos.
I pick WHAT to do and WHEN.
I get paid to keep the action rolling.
I sometimes use arranger patterns, sometimes manual bass and drums, sometimes midi sequences, and sometimes I use custom made audio tracks from my studio with backing vocals and extra instruments. All these tools provide me with a means to an end. They allow me to express my creative talents to make a show.
Pushing fill-ins and selecting variations takes as much time, energy and expertise as it does to play creative, two fisted parts on a kb while a sequence plays the rest of the band's parts. Just like we ALL used to do when we had live playing members in the band. Remember bands?????

I miss playing funky clav parts to disco and R&B tunes. It's much more authentic and energetic if I sequence the backing tracks and play my ass off on the D6 or the Rhodes. Even when I play bass ... I can manage to get the groove happenin' with just those 2 hands, but it's harder to make a full sound because SOMETHING is always left out.

I like arrangers. I like sequences. I like simple piano chords. In short ......

I

Like

Music.

I like playing it, and I like the people to like LISTENING and DANCING to it.
I find that mostly - senior audiences are the quickest to accept a "canned" arrangement of a song, while the younger crowds definitely respond to the sequences more. I am STILL working the keys and the crowd ... but in a different way.

My basic rule of thumb is this:

If it WORKS .... keep doing it.

So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor.
Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like.

Today's music is getting more and more "signature" specific with certain riffs and catch phrases that make it impossible for an arranger pattern to do justice to the song. If your crowd is over 40 (55 really) .... you have a shot at acceptance using arranger patterns, but the younger people see it as "hokey" and sophmorish.
I tend to agree. In low volume settings, especially. Sequences are lame when played softly. They need the energy from the movement of air, since there is NO one sending the energy into the performance at THAT specific moment.

In many cases - I'd rather play a left hand bass line and right hand chords to a drum beat than use a generic, overused pattern that sounds like every other player that owns a PA80. I like that intimate, small combo sound that only manual bass can provide. There is much more energy and "groove" when the piano and bass are in sync. For bigger sound - the sequence is the winner. The arranger fits somewher in between the two. (easy fellas ....... it's just MY views)

To summarize ....... there is NOTHING fake about using backing patterns, tracks, sequences, or whatever - as long as YOU are in control of the performance and you are playing YOUR part along with it. If you want to be a "front person" - that's OK too ... just don't fake it on dead keys. Get out in front and sing to the clients. They are VERY used to that concept.
Playing arrangers is a shortcut to a good sound, but it should not be a DESTINATION to aspire to. Use these tools to help you learn how to put it all together .... then go do it ! The important thing is energy. That comes from hard work Learn the parts !




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-15-2006).]

WOW ... As one of the "Tonys" I made the list !!! ......
t.

Wow.. One of my first post made a come back! I posted this when I first got my keyboard and I began loading midi files... I thought WOW! You don't even have to play the thing! However, that's not why I'm in it... I love the hobby and I call it a hobby and will never forget that.. I have a great job and I love recoding my music at nights and on the weekends... It's a great hobby to have and I enjoy ever minute of it.. Hope arranger boards get better and better.. I'm a composer most of all and arrangers are magic.. Thanks Don for putting me on the list!

My anthem for all us minstrels was "can't stop playing" I made this for all of us folks driven by creating tunes.. Or is just me? http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandID=313920&content=music

One thing I'd like to address is I could not play my stuff live, at least it is my stuff.. i'd be lucky to make it playing the right handed parts... Recording is cool you can go back.. live, no going back... If I want to have my "created by me" playing, then so be it.. At least I'm not stealing..

Define an arranger Keyboard..
Recreate..
Recreate and embellish
Create.
Wish one is more valid?

I spend hours upon hours getting it right.. It ain't live.. So my hats off to all the live players.. However, I don't gig... Yet..

by the way, if I do, it will be in a band.. Have follks ready..



[This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 08-15-2006).]

I think all of us agree without a doubt ... faking playing is so lame. And most audiences would realize it eventually. But using a SMF as a backing track to perform over makes perfect sense for many acts. If you perform over then that is all that matters. My band does "Hella Good" by No Doubt that has a lot of pulsing electronica bass lines that I couldn't play live. So I sequenced them and play that with a click track to the drummer live on stage. But I never pretend to play the lines I am not playing. There are times when using SMF files makes perfect sense. Just don't prend you are actually playing them but perform over them by all means. That is what MIDI technology is great for.


I'm sure that no-one using an arranger keyboard for live gigs pretends to play the automated backing, just the right hand improvisation. That would amount to the same thing. You might find the rare case like the one Scott mentioned but I really think people like that are the tiny minority. Someone in the audience would wake up to it eventually and call the bluff. I'm not concerned that someone with SMFs is going to take jobs away from my band. It aint gonna happen. So don't waste time worrying about it. If you are a good performer then that will be obvious to the audience.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 08-15-2006).]

Hi everyone!

My wife and I are currently performing onboard one of the most exclusive cruise ships in the world. Other then our duo, the entertainment department consists also of a 4 piece show band, three professional singers and a stage manager. The show band and the singers are all highly trained professional musicians and even so, they are using click tracks to complete the sound of the band with strings, horns and many other sounds. The guests never notice that and all are very happy with the result.
Personally, I use styles for the cocktail hour and half of the pre dinner set. For the dancing sets always midi files with my piano, keyboard, virtual sax and my wife’s acoustic guitar and light percussion instruments.
Best regards to everyone, and thanks Uncle Dave for your input!
Flav. www.fantasyband.ro

Well said Craig.
Being a singer I totally agree with you.

Cousin Ken

I miss Uncle Dave. Thanks for re-posting his comments Donny.

Eddie

Eddie ....UD is alive and well & off to other musical ventures in the teaching field....I'll see him at my wifes big 50th birthday bash this week...
I'll pass along the message....

Flavie great website I enjoyed your pics & videos.....reminds me of my Cruise ship days 25 yrs ago with my 50's/60's show band I also mixed it up using an array of SMF & live for the big shows in the main room & just the arranger styles & vocals for the small cocktail rooms on ship.....great life!! After a few seasons & hurricanes I switched back to having my feet on land again

Enjoy

Hi, Flavie...nice Taylor...been looking at that model!

Russ

Hi Dnj and Captain Russ,
Thank you for your kind appreciations! Well, I guess we are getting there as well. We’ve been traveling the world together for the past 9 years and now, we feel like settling down in our new country – Canada. I am really looking forward to begin a new life that will start with the end of this contract.
Good luck to all of you!
Flav.

Donny ... Happy Birthday to your wife, and tell UD I said hi, and wish BOTH of them the very best from me ...
t.

You got it Gumba

Nice link above DNJ gave me a good laugh

me too

Hi I know many of you know me but I haven't been here for a long, long time. But I read where someone said they missed Uncle Dave. Isn't Uncle Dave here anymore??
Nobby

Hi Nobby! Where you been?
Uncle Dave went through a quick, bad marriage and divorce, took a "real" job, but now has quit that and is playing music again, mosly in the daytime so he can have time with his kids.
He's o.k., just has been very pre-occupied with other things.
It's good to hear from you again. Stay in touch.
DonM

Lets just say that soon Dave will be sharing his musical knowledge with the masses

Here at the zone?

That was going to be one of my xmas wishlist requests. Hope it comes early.

No not at the SZ.......in the private sector

Thats a bummer.
I for 1, definitely miss his help, contributions, viewpoints.

Mr Ed you can always email him

If you wanna play all the parts, then it is making your own SMF, or recording yourself one by one with live instruments on multi-track recorder. anyway Guitar/Bass/Drums is the most Live/Right/Real way to play! And everyone knows that.

But amongst us Keyboarders there will always be Arguments. and Guitarists and other live/real musicians, they hate both STYLES, and SMFs. so.... being a keyboardist is the "worst" in music industry.




[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 08-20-2006).]