Just some observations relating to the Korg Karma, which I use as a sort of arranger alternative.

The KorgKarma Yahoo Group had been growing at an average rate of about 100 members per month since its founding on February 4, 2001. It reached a peak of 1528 late last month (May, 2002). The present membership is 1483, a net drop of 45 (~3%) in the last week.

Members are not explaining why they are leaving the group. I suspect that one reason is a failure to meet promised dates for an updated OS 2.0 and a GE ("style") editor. These were originally promised for April, with May as an outside date. Also, the editor that is to be released "soon" is a crippled version--working only with a Karma keyboard attached-effectively using the keyboard as a large hardware dongle.

An second factor maybe regional promotion schemes. Korg USA creates promotions, e.g., promising free expansion cards or software to people who purchase Karma Keyboards within a specific time frame. I do not know how much well these promotions boost sales, but they sure cause a lot of bad feeling among group members who bought their Karma Keyboards too early or who live outside the USA.

A third factor is that Karma capabilities are being found in new places. The Karma Keyboard is often used with an external sequencer to assist composition. However, the external sequencers (notably Cakewalk Sonar 2.0 and Cubase SX) are beginning to sport Karma-like capabilities. For computer-centric composers it can be more convenient to generate MIDI effects from within a sequencer than using an attached keyboard.

I can think of other factors that might be contributing to this decline. A few months ago, there was a deliberate pruning of the group membership, after which growth resumed. So this decline might be a prelude to further growth, an indication that the Karma has filled its niche, or the beginning of an ongoing decline. In any event, I felt this decline should be noted, and safer here than there.

I don't think the investment in a Karma would have been a sound decision for me. For what I do in particular, I need an arranger for live play ( PA80 ) and a workstation / synth for the studio ( Motif ). Both of these boards are also useful in either setting for me. Still, every time I go to the music store I play around with the Karma. One of the GEs does this fusion thing that I just love. I came oh so close to buying one last year. Like nearly everything else though, I was afraid that the novelty would eventually wear off and then I would be left with a board that would not be suitable for me for live play and whose strengths as a studio board do not particularly gravitate toward my preferred genres of music.

I was willing to spend the bucks for a software version though. I remember seeing dialogue about it in the past on the Karma forum and I seem to remember that the estimated retail price was going to be about 500 USD or so. I stayed with the forum to kind of keep track of this. Later I read that there might only be a Mac version released and that Steven was not sure if a Windows version would be released at all. I lost interest but from time to time I visited the forum anyway.

Then one day, a moderator emailed me to point out to me that I was not very active in the group. He suggested I become more active or consider leaving the group, so I chose the latter. I have not been back since. Still, I wonder... Did Korg ever release a MAC version and / or a Windows version of Karma ?

AJ

No software has been released. The promised dates for Karma MW have passed, so it remains "expected soon". However, this version only works with the Karma Keyboard attached, so it won't do Bluezplayer any good.

Karma Creator is the full blown version that is to work without a Karma Keyboard attached. I expect it to retail at $299. Mac and PC versions will probably be released at the same time. I doubt it will be released this year.

Not many people appear to be using the Karma keyboard live. In fact, I consider the external power supply to be somewhat of an embarassment on stage. More people use it as a compositional tool or crutch. In fact, some use band-in-a-box to generate chord progressions which are used to trigger Karma patterns--and the results can get pretty good with a little tweaking in a sequencer.

Bluezplayer mentioned that a moderator emailed him suggesting he become more active or leave. It was Stephen Kay himself who did the emailing. He emailed all those who selected the "web-only" option for the KorgKarma group. Many opted to leave the group as bluezplayer did. I would think at least some of them might have become more active at a later date if they had not been urged out of the group. I think this is just one example of actions by the inventor that hurt Karma sales.

Cliff,

Karma creator was exactly what I was looking for, but I've lost some interest at this point. That it will not be likely be released any time soon only lessens my interest in it. I share the same thoughts as you concerning the emails sent by Steven. Even though I opted not to purchaase the Karma, I monitored the site at times to see what might become of the board and / or the software. Once I received that email, however, it dulled any interest that I still had.

I'm not certain what purpose it serves to ask members to exit the group unless Yahoo itself made it an issue. A couple of the other Yahoo groups I belong to are larger though, and I have never known this to happen in those groups, so I tend to doubt it.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-07-2002).]

Bluezplayer,

Yahoo had nothing to do with the purge. They want bigger numbers. Stephen Kay indicated ahead of time that he would suggest inactive members leave the group. Somehow he felt that, by reducing the group's membership, he would reduce his workload.

I do not think you are missing much. There is very little interesting information that would affect a purchase decision anymore. By the time Karma Creator is released, there will be little need for it. Just as you no longer need Sonic Foundry Acid to manipulate samples, you will no longer need Karma to manipulate MIDI effects as both these capabilties are being integrated into sequencers. This will relegate the Karma to a niche market, rather than a market-leading position.

Clif

P.S. KorgKarma membership is now down to 1479, so a further net drop of four members since I posted the first message and a net drop of 49 members since membership peaked.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 06-07-2002).]

As of my last post in this thread, KorgKarma membership dropped to 1470 (58 down from its peak) while we were waiting for OS 2.0 to be made available. OS2 was released on Thursday, June 14, and membership has since risen to 1481.

From an arranger keyboard standpoint, the most interesting feature to be added by Karma OS2 is the ability to change the time signature in real time. While this is useful for songs that do have signature changes, the main advantage is to provide different time-signature versions of each "style". For example, many arranger keyboards have only a few 3/4 styles. Imagine being able to access a 3/4 version of every 4/4 style on your keyboard.

The "catch" is that changing the time signature of a style would not always yield musical results. This might be a problem for those who expect a keyboard to sound good no matter which buttons are pressed. But some of us would not might learning what works and what does not through trial and error.

Another feature that might be useful for arranger keyboard jam sessions is an "auto" clock mode. At Bebop's place, we had three arranger keyboards playing at once. However, only one was being used as an arranger--since we did not synchronize the arranger clocks. It is possible to make one arranger keyboard a master and the other slaves for this purpose, but that usually takes some navigating to switch from internal to external MIDI clock and back again. The autoclock feature allows this change to occur automatically--MIDI slave mode is entered when an external MIDI clock signal is detected.

In other areas, Karma OS2 is playing catch-up with arranger keyboards. For example, tap tempo is added. Another new feature is to see the actual value of a parameter (e.g., swing factor) change as you manipulate it.

The feature the Karma community is most excited about is the ability to add new GEs, which are phrases from which styles ("Combis") are built. The original OS allowed new styles to be built, but only using phrases built into the keyboard. The original set of 1190 phrases, however, was fixed. OS2 adds room for 320 user phrases. However, we still cannot create user phrases. That will have to wait until some computer software is released.

I love that update!...Swing quantizing is something I was waiting for. as soon as I get the MW it will even get better!....my karma freezez sometimes though...I wasn't able to find what causes it to freeze but I can tell you it does it in Prog. mode and comb alot....any Ideas

[This message has been edited by vic83 (edited 06-16-2002).]