I recently discovered that the Solton (Ketron) SD1 uses a chord recognition method (in full keyboard 'pianist' mode) which differs greatly to Technics KN arranger keyboards and possibly Yamaha too.

Checkout the below example for the very 'basic' D minor 7th chord (3rd inversion):

On the SD1, when you play (in 'pianist' mode) a simple Dm7 chord voicing (C-D-F-A) with your left hand, and then play the 'single' notes with your right hand, in slow succession: D-E-F-G-A-B-C (dorian chord scale), you will notice that the chord recognition changes to C13 when you play the notes E or G (lead/melody notes). I don't like this because the harmony and associated auto-accompaniment bass line will jump to a C13 which is not in keeping with the required "D minor" chord tonality of the intended chord. I realize that the SD1 also includes a mode called AUTO mode. In AUTO mode, any time you press a 3 note (or more) recognized chord, the keyboard does'n't accept new chords as long as you play 1 or 2 notes maximum as lead or
improvisation in the right hand. Unfortunately this only partially solves the problem of the unexpected harmony change to C13, as it allows you to only play a 1 or 2 notes maxiumum in the right hand without changing the original chord recognition harmony. Unfortunately, this same chord recognition problem also occurs when playing (on the SD1) most all other basic chords as well (G7 etc).

On the other hand, the Technics KN keyboards allow you to play right hand lead-melody and/or improvisation (without the 2 note (auto mode) limitation the SD1 has), and the KN keyboards also allow you to play ALL notes of the associated chord scale without the chord recognition suddenly jumping to a different chord root or tonality (major, minor, dominant) as the SD1 does.

The SD1 also has a mode called STANDARD mode. In STANDARD mode, anytime you press the Sustain Pedal, you " freeze " the current tonality and you can perform on the keyboard as a regular Piano. I personally don't think this is practical as it potentially conflicts with normal sustain pedal playing techniques used for standard piano playing.

I would have much prefered that Solton (Ketron) implemented the chord recognition design used by Technics & (Yamaha?).

I am now VERY interested in finding out how the Yamaha PSR9000 and 9000pro recognize the below D minor 7th chord (in full keyboard mode) when the right hand (concurrently) plays the associated chord scale notes: D-E-F-G-A-B-C. Yamaha arranger keyboard owners, PLEASE test and report back your findings here. Thanks in advance for all input and feedback on this subject. - Scott

Dm7: Chord voicing (C-D-F-A) PIANIST mode:

left hand: right hand note: SD1 Recognition:
(C-D-F-A) D Dm7
(C-D-F-A) E C13
(C-D-F-A) F Dm7
(C-D-F-A) G C13
(C-D-F-A) A Dm7
(C-D-F-A) B Dm67
(C-D-F-A) C Dm7

left hand: right hand note: Technics KN Recognition:
(C-D-F-A) D Dm7
(C-D-F-A) E Dm9
(C-D-F-A) F Dm7
(C-D-F-A) G Dm11
(C-D-F-A) A Dm7
(C-D-F-A) B Dm67
(C-D-F-A) C Dm7

Scott,

The i30 shows Dm7 straight through except that it shows Dm79 when the E note is played. This is in full keyboard mode.
Boo

Scott ,
If you play a chord on the SD1 in pianist mode and lock the chord by pressing down the sustain pedal , this will allow you to play notes without the Sd1 following you .
It is a little awkward , I'll admit .
I assume that you have forwarded this to Sandro ?
dano

Scott,

I don't understand what you are trying to do. If you don't want the keyboard to read your right hand, then you should use split mode. If you set the keyboard to "full mode", that means you want the keyboard to read from both your left hand & right hand. A (C-D-F-A-E) is not Dm9 in my book.

I'm very happy with Ketron's "pianist full mode". The AUTO mode works great when the songs need to change chords two three times within a measure. Other times I use the STANDARD mode the most. By using the sustain pedal in pianist mode, I have full control of when I want the chord change. This is working great for me, so please do not change this. May be Ketron should add a "Scott Yee" mode.

Henry

Hi Henry: First of all, I'm glad to hear that 'you' are happy with Solton's chord recognition system in FULL keyboard 'Pianist' mode.

You say that the notes in FULL keyboard 'Pianist' mode: C-D-F-A + E (played as a chord -left to right) is not a Dm9 chord in YOUR book? Are you kidding? The (C-D-F-A) chord voicing is the BASIC standard 3rd position inversion of a Dm7 chord (C=7th, D=root, F=3rd, A=5th) and the note E is the 9th of the chord. This is CLEARLY a Dm9 or Dm79 chord; as BOTH the Technics KN keyboards & apparently the Korg i30 read it as a Dm79 in FULL keyboard "pianist' mode. Henry, I'm curious: exactly WHAT chord do 'YOU' recognize (C-D-F-A + E) as?

Solton for some strange unknown reason chose to recognize the ((C-D-F-A) + E) chord voicing as a C13. This makes absolutely NO sense to me particularly because a C dominant chord MUST include the all important dominant 7th note: Bb. There is NO Bb in this chord voicing.

You said: "If you don't want the keyboard to read your right hand, then you should use split mode". Henry, but I "DO WANT" the keyboard to read and recognize ALL the notes in BOTH my left and right hands. The above C-D-F-A left hand and note E played in my right hand demonstrates clearly that I want the keyboard to read ALL of the notes I'm playing over the full keyboard in its' chord recognition.

Here are SD1 test results of other basic simple chord voicings which were performed by a Solton SD1 owner (Pierre Fracalanza) which further demonstrates what I personally see as FULL Keyboard 'pianist' mode 'chord recognition' problems on the the SD1.

I know these chord recognition tests may appear OVERLY TECHNICAL to some of you, but the bottom line is that the SD1's current chord recognition table can possibly result in unexpected & undesirable auto-accompaniment bass lines and backup harmonies, especially when playing melodic lead lines and solos. I still think the SD1 is a great keyboard in all other respects, so I hope that this chord recognition issue can be addressed. I'm glad that Sandro has recently implemented 'rootless jazz chord voicings' too, but unfortunately this same problem (in Full keyboard 'pianist' mode) exists on the newly implemented jazz style 'rootless' chords as well.

DanO: I will inform Sandro (Solton - Ketron, Italy) and provide him a link to this posting thread so he might review these test result observations.

Dm7: 2nd inversion
Left hand: (A-C-D-F); Right hand notes played: D-E-F-G-A-B-C (D dorian scale)
SD1 Chord Recognition: Dm7 - C13 - Dm7 - C13 - Dmin7 - Dmin67 - Dmin7
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a D minor chord

G7: root position
Left Hand: (G-B-D-F); Right hand notes played: G-Ab-A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#
SD1 Chord Recognition: G7, G7 9b, G79, G7 10b (audibly a Bbmaj chord with G in the bass), G7, G11 (audibly a F chord with G in the bass), G11+, G7, G7 (audibly just a Gmajor chord), G7, G7, G7 (audibly just a G major chord)
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a G dominant chord

G7: 1st inversion
Left Hand: (B-D-F-G); Right hand notes played: same as above
SD1 Chord Recognition: G7, G7 9b, G79, G7 10b, G7, G11 (played as an F chord/G in the bass), C# 5b 7 9b, G7, B7 (plays B chord), G7, G7, B7 (plays B Chord)
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a G dominant chord

G7: 2nd inversion
Left Hand: (D-F-G-B); Right hand notes played: same as above
SD1 Chord Recognition: G7, G7 9b, G79, G7 10b, G7 , G11 (played as above), G11#, G7, D7, G7, G7, D7
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a G dominant chord

G7: 3rd inversion
Left Hand: (F-G-B-D); Right hand notes played: same as above
SD1 Chord Recognition: Same as 2nd inversion except playing a D# in right hand gives you an F7 on display, but only plays F strumming notes (no chord), playing an F# gives you F7 and you hear strumming F notes (no chord)
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a G dominant chord

Cmaj7: 1st inversion
Left Hand: (E-G-B-C); Right hand notes played: C-D-E-F-F#-G-A-B (C ionian w/raised 4th)
SD1 Chord Recognition: Cmaj7, G13, Cmaj7, G13, Emaj7, Cmaj7, G13, Cmaj7
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a C major chord

Cmaj7: 2nd inversion
Left Hand: (G-B-C-E); Right hand notes played: same as above
SD1 Chord Recognition: Same as 1st inversion but playing an F# in right hand gives you a Gmaj7
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a C major chord

Cmaj7: 3rd inversion
Left Hand: (B-C-E-G); Right hand notes played: same as above
SD1 Chord Recognition: Cmaj 7, Cmaj7 9 , Cmaj 7 , G13, Bmaj7 , Cmaj7, C6 maj7, Cmaj7
PREFERED Chord Recognition: ALL should be based on a C major chord

PS: MANY thanks to Mr. Pierre Fracalanza for taking the time to both perform and provide the above SD1 chord test results.

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-17-2001).]

Scott,

May be I read you wrong. From your post, I got the impression that you do not want the chords to change when you solo/improvise with the right hand. My point was, the chords SHOULD change as your right hand play along and Ketron's AUTO and STANDARD is working as expected. The problem with SD1 is not the chord recognition methods. It just need to recognize a longer list of chords. This should be an optional mode and most players would not need this.

C-D-F-A-E is Dm79 and should not be C13.

Henry

HI: Scott
I checked out the 9000 PRO & this is the
outcome
(C-D-F-A) D Dm7/c
(C-D-F-A) E Dm79
(C-D-F-A) F Dm7/c
The other 4 are all Dm7
The only thing that changes in the 2 with the
c on the end is the base line, for the chords
that have the /c the running base stopes &
it plays the C note but the chord does not
change, the rest of the rythem did not change
Denny
PS I tried this on my KN5000 & it worked the
same way except the running base kept playing
the same on all chords

Hi Denny: MANY thanks for confirming that the Yamaha 9000pro's chord 'root' and 'tonality' (major - minor) recognition (in FULL keyboard mode) DOES NOT change when you play OTHER notes of the associated D minor (dorian) scale in the right hand. This is GREAT news !

I am now very interested in having you (or any other forum members) test and confirm (in FULL keyboard mode) that the Yamaha 9000pro/PSR9000's OTHER chord voicings (chord root/tonality) 'listed above in this thread' also do NOT change when you play the OTHER notes of the associated chord scale. Thanks in advance for all input. - Scott

Scotty,
Just for your info.
My "old" G 800 shows same result as Technics.

Hi Scot!

Done the test (Sir) , on my KN6500, and these are the results:

(C-D-F-A) D Dm7
(C-D-F-A) E Dm7
(C-D-F-A) F Dm7
(C-D-F-A) G Dm7
(C-D-F-A) A Dm7
(C-D-F-A) B Dm7
(C-D-F-A) C Dm7


This test was done playing the left hand (C-D-F-A) starting from "C2", and playing the Right Hand "D" from D4 (8 notes above middle C).

However, when played closer together, with the Chords (C-D-F-A) played from Middle C, and the Right hand "D" starting on the same note (5 semi-tones above the last note in the chord "A"), then only the second of these chords (when pressing "E" of course), is different, and it is Dm7/9. The rest are all Dm7.

Scot, You get the following on the KN5000:

(C-D-F-A) G Dm11
(C-D-F-A) B Dm67

Which I don't on the KN6500. Scot, - Do you play the notes in "staccato" fashion (isolate the notes?), because any overlapping of notes, Sustain etc, may cause them to differ.

My fingers are taken OFF the keys before playing the next note. I haven't got a KN5000 now to try this on, but it seems that the KN6500 differs to the KN5000 in this test at least.

If I play a chord on the left hand (always in Pianist mode BTW) an octave down from the right hand notes, then no change in my root chord will be affected, whether Dm7, or C#9b13 - or any chord for that matter.

If I remember correctly, the Instructor on The KN6000 video said "Your chords will not be affected on your left hand at all, as long as you keep a distance of a "FIFTH" with the right hand

------------------------------

C Major - in it's basic form. left Hand: (C E G) Right hand: C~C. Playing a full octave, only the D note changes the root chord, and that being C/ADD9. This Exercise was used playing C Major on "Middle C" (C E G), and the right hand starting on the "C" just above it (8 notes above middle C).

However, if I play C Major in its 3rd inversion (G C E) and play the scale of C on the right hand, the Root Chord doesn't change at all. The "C" of the above chord will be middle C of course, with my Right Hand starting One Octave higher.

As to the Solton SD1, you say you find (in your example)

(C-D-F-A) E C13?
(C-D-F-A) F Dm7
(C-D-F-A) G C13?
(C-D-F-A) A Dm7
(C-D-F-A) B Dm67
(C-D-F-A) C Dm7

hmmmmmm??? - maybe Dm69 is "passable", but C13? (Bb, E, A,)Its a totally different Chord altogether. someone here play DM7, then C13, and you will know what one means. This would be TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE to me, and I would ask Solton/Ketron to sort this problem out - sooner rather than later.

Dano, you said "If you play a chord on the SD1 in pianist mode and lock the chord by pressing down the sustain pedal , this will allow you to play notes without the Sd1 following you .
It is a little awkward, I'll admit

....Or in other words Dano, it is trying to work round a PROBLEM. If I want to play in two handed mode (like I usually do), I would like to express my playing "freely", and not have to "think" when to do this or that with the sustain pedal.


J5