Hello everyone,
Off the arranger subject. Can anyone tell me if the 16 bit (like VS840GX) produce less quality sound than the upper model 24 bit units (such as VS890 and above - using Roland models as reference only).
Additionally, I'm interested in the best sound, easiest to figure out. My deal will be to record my finished keyboard sequences/song to stereo tracks and then just put in vocals in the other tracks. Nothing elaborate. Advice on units experienced...what to stay away from, quality-wise, is appreciated. Open to ALL makes and models.
Thanks,
Zuki

Zuki,
There are alot of excellent choices out there. 24 bit is better sounding than 16, bit 16 is the standard currently. All the stuff I do is 16 bit 44,100hz. The problem with the 24 bit, is that everything has to be 24 bit down the line, or you've wasted it. Meaning that if the player or cd burner will not play back in 24 bit only 16 then the 24 is lost.

The choices are really dependant about how much you want to pay to play. There are some very good units in the $500.00 range. That will usually but you a 2 in live 8 track recorder. Zoom and Boss make some nice units. Roland manuals can be a bit challenging to understand though and on their larger units, you have to buy the effects seperately usually.

Here's a few things to look for:
How many seperate tracks can you record live at one time. If only 2 you will have to do alot of overdubbing if you have or plan to get other sound sources.
How many effects can you pile on top of each other for each track. Reverb chorus etc and how good do they sound.
How musch does the recorder compress the data.
How large a h/d does it have. (wav's take up a ton of space)8 to 12 gigs minimum
Can you bounce tracks through an internal buss. Most can
How many and what types of inputs does it have. At a bare minimum, you'll want 2-1/4" an xlr for mic if possible, and a pair of RCAs in case you want to add from another type of source.
Also, play with one on display and see if the interface is at least sort of intuitive, if not, it could have all the best features in the world but if they are a hassle to figure out, you'll never use them.

The last thing to decide is whether you want to go computer based or stand alone. I use both...I have a Yamaha AW 4416 and Sonar.
Here's a few of the pro's and cons.
Pro:
The AW while has the ability to go deep, you can operate it more like the old cassette recorders if you want...punch record and go. Has a very tactile interface to it, buttons and sliders that you can lay hands on.
Con: Editing is a major hassle expensive and when it becomes outdated, just like with keyboads, you'd need to dump it for nothing and buy a new piece of hardware. Cannot record midi, wav only.
Computer based.
Pro
Ability to edit much deeper especially midi. Cut & paste easily, add or take out 1 note or more if you like midi. Midi recording you have the ability to record 16 seperate tracks at one time and edit each individually. Change instruments post recording (midi)
Tons of plug ins available for different effects etc and as more become available you can easily add them to the setup.
Everything is on the big screen in front of you graphically.
Drag and drop loops you can add.
When you need to update to the latest version much cheaper.
Con:
Susceptible to many of the same problems you have with your PC/Mac....crashes and doing stupid stuff.
Finicky about running/recording if you have other things running in the backround like anti virus software etc. I really didn't enjoy using my Sonar too much until I bought a dedicated laptop to just record music with very little else loaded on it. It runs much better that way.

The sound quality and interface with the pc and how well it works will depend alot on what sound card you have or buy to get the music into the computer. You'll need something to get midi and 1/4" analog into the pc. While the little 1/8" ins that most off the shelf sound cards have works.....uh that really won't cut it if you really want to record well and have decent sound quality. You'll need to look at interfaces like M Audio make like the Delta series.

There are many different computer programs available for the pc sequencing and like everything else what you get depends on what you spend. I also have Power Tracks and while it is relatively cheap and their customer support is the best especially compared to Cakewalk who sucks in this department. Power tracks is pretty limited in comparison, it is limited on it's ability to record tracks analog etc. and the editing is dull in comparison to Sonar.
jam on,
Terry

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Yamaha and Korg both have some really good 12 and 16 track recorders out now.
Yamaha has the new AW16G which is around $1000.00 for 16 tracks, with effects, a 20GB hard drive and a built in CD burner which can also be used for playback. There are also sample pads which can be used for loading up drum loops, etc. and then arranging them back in the order you wish to create drum tracks.
Korg has the D1200 and the D1600 machines, which are considered the easiest by my staff to use. The D1200 has 12 tracks and with the CD burner, 20 GB hard drive, tons of effects sells for $1000.00. The D1600 has 16 tracks with all the effects and CD burner and sells for approx. $1495.00.
The $500.00 price range won't get you a built in hard drive or CD burner and usually these use smart media cards with memory up to 128MB and because most of these are a bit smaller, they are not as easy to operate.
The Yamaha allows for up to 8 tracks of recording at once, the Korg D1200 is 4 and the Korg D1600 is also 8. On the Yamaha you also get a compressor/limiter on each of the 16 tracks and I think Yamaha is the only company to offer this. The other companies give you the ability to use a compressor limiter but from their effect processor so you have to record the effect to the track which is saved with the song as opposed to the Yamaha being able to turn the dynamic effects on and off or change them at will without having to "burn" them into the track.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, california

Terry....
["How many seperate tracks can you record live at one time. If only 2 you will have to do alot of overdubbing if you have or plan to get other sound sources."]

Can you explain this to me? even with two why can't you keep recording on the other 4-8 tracks without any overdubbing?>>>>>

George,.....
["The $500.00 price range won't get you a built in hard drive or CD burner"]


I was interested in this unit
Fostex vf80..which includes a 20GB HD under $500.00 am I missing something?
http://www.fostex.com/Products/vf80.html

I meant to say hard drive and CD burner. Sorry.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

Donny,
Actually I can record 18 tracks at one time (as opposed to 8 as George says) albeit only 8 live inputs.....meaning you could take 8 things, mics, instruments, whatever plug them all in and go for it.

If on the other hand as your question suggests, you only have 2 inputs, or the recorders ability is only to be able to record 2 tracks live then that is all you can do so.....you could have 2 mics or the 2 outputs from you board plugged in or a guitar and a mic or.....and when you're done recording first pass, you will have only 2 tracks recorded. You can then go back and overdub using the same 2 inputs and record on to tracks 3 & 4, then go back and overdub on to tracks 5&6....now comes where you have to be careful....because some 8 track machines need tracks 7 & 8 for mix down and are the tracks that feed the stereo output. So in essence what that means is that you can only really record 6 tracks total (on this 8 track machine).

A way around that so that you can add more tracks is to bounce them. What that means is you would take tracks 1,2,3,4, and send them internally to tracks 5 & 6. That now leaves tracks 1,2,3,4 open to record something else, because all that you had on those 4 tracks are now on tracks 5 & 6.

The second part of your Q.....is overdubbing. Let's say you did your accmp. on tracks 1 & 2. Now you want to put in vocals, so you plug in your mic and record on track 3 (that's overdubbing) and you then sing backup on the chorus track 4 (again you're overdubbing). With a machine that is only capable of recording 2 tracks live, this is the way you would have to do it.

OK, so what does having the ability to record say 8 tracks live buy me? It means....that on tracks 1 & 2, I can send say the drums out of the main L & R of the Tyros to tracks 1 & 2. Then on the other 2 Tyros outputs, I can send the bass out one and the rest of the accmp. tracks out the other and record those on tracks 3 & 4.....next I can take my mic, plug it into my TC elec. processor and send those 2 outputs to tracks 5 & 6.....then I can take the mono out of my Roland xv 3080 (with the Tyros as the controller) and send one of the patches to track seven and last, I could take the mono out of my Triton Rack and send one of the sound patches to track 8.....hit the record button and at the end I would have 8 seperate recorded tracks in one shot.

Whereas if it was only a two live input recorder, it would have taken me 6 passes to record the same thing.

There are many other things the big bucks buys you....sampling, 130 virtual tracks, motorized faders etc.
jam on,
Terry

Hope that makes sense.

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terry,

thanx for the info, Im startin to understand more and more.. on the digital recording process..
I guess Im just too "old school" Reel to Reel orientated :>)

Zuki,

If you've already recorded the midi files and all you want to do is add vocals, then burn them on CDs, you can do the job using Goldwave, SoundForge XP and a number of other great programs. Goldwave is shareware and considered among the best by a lot of professional users. You can download the program at www.goldwave.com and it comes for an easy to follow, built-in users manual. If you having trouble with the hook-up, you can find instructions at http://psrtutorial.com/ under the intermediate tab, then click on recording. This will save you about $350 to $550 or more and really produces excellent results.

Good Luck,

Gary

Gary,
Thanks for the Goldware info. I'll check it out, but usually don't have much luck on computer related stuff.
Zuki

Also....thanks to the other guys for sharing your thougts. Appreciated.
Zuki