The program is called Charlie and it is a VSTi plugin for programs such as Logic, Cubase, etc. It is the first "real" sample-based virtual instrument. After listening to the demos I have to say it simply blows away Native Instruments B4 IMO.

Charlie was shown at Winter NAMM and apparently it is available now. The cost is $299 but it sure beats having to buy a Clone, eg., VK-88, CX-3, etc.

Of course you need a computer or laptop to run it but if you already have those and a VST host program, ie., Logic, Cubase, Sonar 3, etc., then you're good to go.

Oh, and your Keyboard would have to have Midi In/Out ports and or a USB interface to run to the computer or laptop.

I am seriously considering getting Charlie.

Those Organ sounds are simply fantastic! The best I've heard in a Software based B3 emulator and better than 'most' Keyboard Clones I've heard. The notable exception may be an actual B3.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Don't forget to listen to the Demos!!

Charlie

Is the universe trying to tell me something?
I got the message already. TMI. I hear you.
Mike, thanks for sharing. No. Really. I mean it. I didn't know you were working for the universe.
Starkeeper

I use the NI B4 on stage through my laptop and it fools a lot of people, it never crashes, works as a stand alone program, has user programable preset's and comprehensive editing facilities, a great leslie simulator, super eye catching graphics and the importing of different vintage instruments option plus unlimited polyphony.
Do you think you could tell them apart in a band situation???
Personally I think the B4 is hard to beat consequently I shall be using my B4 for the forseeable future.

Larigot

I listened to the Demos. Wow, but I didn't hear a sample with harmonic percusion (2nd or 3rd). This is often used by jazz organists.
Starkeeper

Mike, "blow away NI's B4"...I don't think so..Have you played B4...Charlie sounds great, but it sounds more like Wersi[lacks percussion]..I am not sure what Spectrasonics has to do with the product, but the "Boss"[Eric Persing} knows his stuff...Personally I think B4 is still the best, it's even better than the real thing..

For anyone interested, there's a free demo download here http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?b4_us

Charlie? Gotta have the percussions.

[This message has been edited by renig (edited 01-31-2004).]

How does the LinPlug DaOrgan compare?

I've tried everything out there and nothing has what the B4 has. " Da Organ " is good, but not quite as good as the B4, as far as my tastes v questor. In fact, I think the freeware Z3 is as good as Da organ.

I looked at Charlie, and can hear the demo tunes, but if they don't give me a working demo to test it out myself, no thanks, I'll stick to my B4. Nothing out there "blows it away".

I will give Spectrasonics their due though. Their USB ( Ultimate Sound bank ) series of sounds is excellent for someone who'd prefer to use a soft wavetable synth ( rompler ) vs hardware ( Motifs Fantoms etc ).

AJ

Okay guys, I see my dissing the B4 has stepped on some toes here. Well, to clarify the situation I am judging my decision on the Demos only not playing the respective programs through a Keyboard and sound system. I have demo'd the B4 and Charlie on my computer only and I thought the demo of Charlie was much better than the B4. I suppose (and unequivocally so) that judging them by playing them through a Keyboard Controller and an excellent Sound System will of course provide the ultimate test and the clear winner.

I wish Charlie was a stand alone program that could be tested through my Keyboard (before actually purchasing it) and an external sound system or maybe Ilio could provide a video demonstration of Charlie in action.

Btw, I was not aware that the Native Instruments B4 demo could be actually tested through a Keyboard (by way of Midi In/Outputs etc.??) Is that possible?

I haven't delved into the B4 demo's help files and in fact I don't have the B4 demo currently on my computer. I recently upgraded my computer's hardware and it was necessary for me to clean install Windows XP so I had to reformat my HD and start from sratch again. I have most my programs back up and running now but I will have to go to the Native Instruments site and download the B4 demo again (if I find out I can actually demo it through my Tyros and sound system).

Also, I fired off a couple emails to Ilio but as of yet I have not heard back from them. One of the emails was regarding Percussion and setting up Charlie to use in a live setting.

Best regards,
Mike

B4 is a DXi, VSTi and standalone, and works with a midi controller, so yes, you can use the Tyros as a controller Mike. It won't play "through" any keyboard. Like any other Dxi / VSti, you use your host propgram and computer soundcard. My Midiman Audiophile soundcard outputs directly to my studio mixer - soundsystem, as do my keyboards, so I can play the B4 through the system.

My problem with Charlie is that there is no working demo. Besides that, it's a sample based program. We have enough hardw ware and software romplers in the world that can already do that, and while some come fairly close, they still don't really reproduce the authentic sounds accurately across the entire range of the keys. It's no different than trying to emulate a guitar or sax. There are physical limitations that samples just cannot readily overcome.

The B4 uses a type of physical modeling and has been declared by many sound magazines as well as some pro players to be the closest thing to a B3 - C3 emulation out there, including any and all of today's hardware romplers. My own ears and the memories of hearing and recording a real C3 up close and personal tell me that they are right.

Can you explain how Charlie, at a higher cost, without the actual modeling structures, would be a better value than that ?

AJ

AJ, again I was basing my opinion on the sound between the two on my computer alone. Since you have first hand knowledge of the B4 working through a Keyboard and sound system and also firsthand knowledge of how a C3 sounds up close and personal and you feel the B4 is the closest emulation of a B3 or C3 I respect your opinion.

I am still waiting for a reply from Ilio regarding Charlie's implementation of Percussion and also if it can be easily set up to work in a live situation. There really is not much information at all about Charlie on Ilio's web site.

I'm also going to do a google search to see if there are other professional reviews of Charlie and also see what the experts say about the B4. I know several Keyboardists who praise the B4 highly but when I downloaded the demo and played it through my computer I was less than thrilled with the sound. But again, it is a whole other ball game completely if I were to play the B4 through the Keyboard and an external sound system and I realize that. But since Charlie sounded so much better than the B4 demo IMO I can't help but think it will also sound even that much better through my Keyboard and an external sound system too.

I agree though that Charlie should have Percussion implementation to give it that real B3, C3 sound. Since they didn't include a demonstration of Percussion in their demos I am assuming it doesn't implement it at all. But I am holding out hope that it does, and am still waiting for the final verdict from Ilio regarding that.

Thanks for your reply AJ.

Best regards,
Mike

If you wanted to actually hear the B4 coming through your keyboard and then to your sound system, it can be done Mike. Simply route your soundcard's audio output to the audio inputs of your board. I strongly recommend setting a very low level for both the signal / audio coming out of the soundcard and using a low input setting and adjusting from there ( the Tyros has adjustable inputs I would think ).

I used to do this when I first started using soundfonts. I would use the PA80 as the midi controller, and then send the soundfont's audio ( soundcard to be exact output ) back into the PA80 so that I could process it with the PA80's internal effects and / or layer the soundfont's output with an internal PA80 voice. I was able to make some very cool synth sounds this way, and also was able to supplement what I thoguht was a somewahat weak PA80 ac piano voice.

I no longer do that as my current soundcard is actually the driver for my entire soundsystem. Via a mixer, my internal ( soft ) instruments and my hardware are processed through it before it gets routed to my studio's sound system.

One other cool trick I've used was to send the PA80's internal guitar sounds out and then back into the PA80 so that I could use the guitar effects from the plug in vocal harmony / guitar board. I set the PA80 up so the internal voices would not play through the speakers or the main outputs ( 1 and 2 ). I then sent the guitar sound out through outputs 3 and 4, and rerouted them back into the board via the line inputs. As I mentioned, I set the board up so that internal voices would not play through the main outputs ( 1 and 2 ), but so that the audio coming from the line inputs would. it worked nicely.

AJ

I downloaded the B4 demo again and this time played it through my Delta 44 card routed to my external sound system. I agree it sounds alot better through a good sound system.

I tried to get the B4 demo to work through my Keyboard by way of my Midi Input/Outputs from my computer to my Tyros. I was unable to get it to work that way.

As for routing it through my Mixer and into the Tyros Inputs; the Tyros' inputs are Mono so the resulting output through the Mains would be mono likewise I am assuming. Too much of a hassle in a live setting IMO.

I heard through a person's testimony about the B4 that it was very difficult to play through a Keyboard Live. He also said it sounded "compressed", the 'leakage' was missing, it had bad harmonics in the higher registers and without bass plays flat and nasal sounding. He also said it was impossible to play like an Organ through a normal Master Keyboard, ie., you would need a special Keyboard that would need to have Waterfall keys, drawbars, and an actual Swell Pedal. A normal Keyboard and a PC were totally insufficient in his opinion. He also said it sounded creepy?!?!?

Any way, upon further investigation I've come to the conclusion that if I want a B3 clone I now know which one to get. And it won't be the B4 OR Charlie.

Take a listen to these:

Nord Electro 2 #1

Nord Electro 2 #2

Nord Electro 2 #3

Nord Electro 2 Rhodes and Organ

Nord Electro 2 Organ factory demo

Listen to Nord Electro Organ in Mix

Hands down the best B3 hardware clone I've heard so far and needless to say - way better than either Ilio's Charlie or NI's B4 IMO. Plus the fact I wouldn't have to lug around a Laptop and pray that the B4 or Charlie wouldn't crash on me in the middle of a song when using it Live. The Clavia Nord Electro 2 is a 73 Key B3 clone that also has several other sounds in it most notably Rhodes, Clavinet, Acoustic Pianos, Wurlitzer and of course the B3 Organ sounds.

For an excellent B3 clone the Nord Electro 2 should be on every Organ lovers must have Gear list IMHO. And at $1,699 for the 73 Key version (at zzounds.com) it makes it all the more enticing.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: I wanted to also mention that the Nord Electro 2 is software updateable so when a new OS comes out you can flash update the Keyboard. Also Clavia gives away new sounds when they become available. So instead of buying a new Keyboard when the next version comes out you basically 'get' a new Keyboard by way of new OS updates and new sounds that they let you download for free. So it stays on the cutting edge longer. Very cool!

I think I'm talking myself into getting one. I just love the B3 sound! It's a pity the Tyros doesn't have a worthy B3 patch. A lot of the Organ sounds are good on the Tyros but Yamaha missed the boat on giving Tyros owners a superb B3 sounding Organ like the Nord Electro 2 has.

Before I would get a Nord Electro 2 I think I would like to buy CD-Soft's Custom Drawbar sounds first to see if they would satisfy my B3 sweet tooth. Too bad CD-Soft doesn't take CC's and make the Voices downloadable over the internet. Roel has stated that CD-Soft is suppose to offer that feature in the near?? future. Hopefully sooner than later..

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-02-2004).]

As I remarked in my earlier post on this subject, I use the ‘Native Instruments B4’ live onstage running on an IBM 600E- P2-366Mhz laptop running Win98..its connected via an Eidrol USB to MIDI converter linked to a Yamaha S03 keyboard, my laptop is not a high spec machine but there is no noticeable latency if you run the software through the DirectSound option on your sound card. The need for ‘Waterfall Keys’ only applies if the player uses excessive ‘Palm Wipes’ (running the palm of your hand up/down the keyboard) but this criticism applies to any keyboard used for Hammond style playing, its no big deal I can assure you.

The B4 also runs fine via the Game Port MIDI an your PC but you must active the MPU401option in the MIDI setup page for the software, if it plays via the computer keyboard then it WILL play through MIDI to ANY keyboard if set up correctly. I have set up my favorite registrations, which are selectable from the S03 keyboard; I control the volume (swell) from a standard stereo volume pedal between the laptop and my amp and all in all the setup works flawlessly.

When I first tried NI B4 I went through a lot of my Hammond recordings and played along with them, I can tell you that it was hard to separate one from the other and thus it is the same while plying live onstage, obviously a good knowledge of Hammond drawbar registrations helps enormously and the correct use of reverb and EQ help the authenticity

I have listened to Charlie and IMHO the Leslie simulator does not seem to up to the B4’s, looking at the control panel for Charlie there does not seem to be separate rotor and mike placing adjustments etc, the percussion issue has been mentioned what about the Hammond style Vibrato and Chorus…a very important aspect of the Hammond sound… has that been addressed in Charlie???

NI B4 is still ahead in my opinion and is going to be hard to beat.

Larigot

'keybplayer' can you email me, I have some info for you..

gee_dees@yahoo.co.uk

My wife wants us to upgrade our computer (we currently own a 486 33mhz ), she has come to that decision without a prompting from me. WoooHoooo. There is a soft synth in my future. NI B4 here I come.
Larigot,
I appreciate your following information, a swell pedal is a must for organ playing, velocity sensitivity, does not cut it. Often times a pedal withdraw is used. Here is the quote, " I control the volume (swell) from a standard stereo volume pedal between the laptop and my amp and all in all the setup works flawlessly."
Starkeeper

Where might we find this Z3?

ZR-3 to be exact. Get it here:
http://www.kvr-vst.com/get/213.html

AJ

Does the Z3 require a host? I'm still vague on the technological names.
Starkeeper

Yes, It requires a vst host. Sonar 3, Cubase, n track, or any other VST host will do. Bidule is an example of a freeware host( for now while it's still in beta, but it works fine )

ZR3 is a very decent piece of software ( especially for free ). I don't think it compares at all to the B4 though. I don't think DA organ does either.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-03-2004).]

Well,

I was finally able to get B4 to work in conjunction with my Midi ports and play it through my Tyros. I had the midi cables reversed so after correcting that everything was okay.

Here's my take of NI's B4. Although most of the patches sounded good and some even very good I would still hesitate to lay down 200 bucks for it. One of the reasons is I was having trouble with the Keys on B4 "sticking" in the ON position while I continued to play the Keys on my Tyros. I had to stop my playing, look at the B4 interface to see the offending Key or Keys that were stuck in the ON position and then hit the offending key[s] to "un-stick" it/them.

Sometimes I would hit a key on my Tyros and no corresponding note would eminate from the B4. So every so often I was running into "dead" notes that wouldn't sound. But the real pain was the "stuck on" notes that essentially 'ruined' the song or piece I was playing.

One time I even got a pop up from Windows XP saying it had recovered from a serious error and the program (that was the offender) must close. Guess who the offending program was? Yup, B4.

I know you can adjust the latency of the program at which B4 responds, ie., the lag time, but no matter how I adjusted the latency I still had the hanging "ON" notes problem. PS: I also set the Aftertouch on my Tyros to different settings to see if it would help. It did help the 'dead note' problem some but it didn't eliminate it completely.

My computer is not the problem because my CPU is way above B4's system requirements and I got a Gig of superfast dual channel DDR memory, etc.

I do know the Midi specification is barely able to keep up with itself when transfering data from the computer to the Keyboard so possibly the Midi data transporting from the computer (by way of B4) to the Keyboard is the bottleneck and causing the glitches. That is my guess anyway.

Conclusion?? I'll pass on the B4 because playing live on stage is mission critical and if there is even a hint that a program could cause malfunction or glitches in a live situation (let alone in the quiet of your Home Studio) it ain't worth the bother.

My next step is to wait for CD-Soft.de to allow international online transactions by way of a CC and instant downloads of purchased Custom Voices over the internet. I've previewed all of the Drawbar Custom Voices on CD-Soft's web site and many of them are excellent.

If CD-Soft doesn't come through I will have to live with what I've got in regards to Organ Voices on my Tryos or possibly end up getting a Clavia Nord Electro 2 as a last resort. The Electro 2 is hands down the best hardware B3 clone I've heard as I've stated before.

Best regards,
Mike

Mike your problem sounds like you are using the wrong driver..Use Direct drivers and not an Emulator.. You should be able to set the latency to about 15ms..When B4 is set up properly it works without any concern of failures..Fran

I was looking around and found that
Dash synthesis used to make a VST Roland D50
emulator called "daDIGITAL50", but all links
to it are dead. Does anyone know where I
could find it? and will it accept regular D50 patches?

Fran

I tried using the Direct drivers but still got the same results.

I'm thinking my SB Live! sound card is most likely the culprit. I use it to run B4. My Delta 44 PCI card doesn't have Midi Output ports. And the SB Live! is not really a Professional quality sound card. It doesn't have Asio driver support and it has a rather high latency rate.

My next Professional sound card will need to have Midi integration and compatibility.

I guess I should start saving now to get one. I'll have to start checking again what's new in the way of professional quality sound cards. I haven't checked in quite a while. Something around the $700-$800 range.

Best regards,
Mike

I operate the NI B4 at 2.9 ms latency all the time with no hitches of any kind. I can do this in the standalone mode or as a VSTi. So to me the software is robust and reliable. The only downside I see is that after the installation it will ask for the installation CD occasionally but even this stops after a few times.

So, both the sound and reliability are excellent.

Keybplayer...you seem to have a lot of problems with B4, sometimes it seems we all get a piece of software that at times just dosen't seem to work properly for us when everybody else is having no problems at all.

I must admit the B4 was a bit unstable when I used it on my laptop running Win XP but after reverting back to Win98 it works perfectly, but it runs perfectly on my main PC which runs Win XP..but I do use a MIDI to USB converter so it may help you to invest in this device as it can alleviate note hang problems.

Hope things sort themselves out for you and I hope my info was of benefit to you as well.

Regards

Larigot


[This message has been edited by larigot (edited 02-04-2004).]

Got my email response from Ilio. Guess what? Charlie DOES implement Percussion into its Organ sounds. Take a look at this:

Notice if you will at the top of the photo just to the right of center you will see a "Percussion On/Off Switch". Bingo! Charlie has Percussion!!

Ilio hasn't answered my other email to them. If they do I will keep you posted as to any new info they provide about playing Charlie in a Live setting.

Best regards,
Mike

I see some of the members use the B4. Does anyone use B4Buddy? I don't get it. How does it help in using B4?
Smokey

Smokey says, "How does it help in using B4?". It helps you sound like you are playing a real Hammond B3. I haven't heard any musician on this forum or on the Harmony-Central synth forum say anything negative about Native Instruments B4. So much for voices being subjective, or does that apply only to the piano voice?
Starkeeper

B4 on Windows XP brings problems :
Hanging notes, keys not moving on the screen etc.

After changing 'compatibility' options to WINDOWS 98 she's OK again !

Use soundcards that support ASIO2 and the latency is (almost) gone.

Roel

I operate the NI B4 in Windows XP with no problems (standalone, VSTi, ASIO or WDM) at 2.9 ms latency.

I use B4 I know it's good. I want to know if anyone has used "B4 Buddy". Its supposed to be a front end for the B4. I think?
Smokey