AJ, again I was basing my opinion on the sound between the two on my computer alone. Since you have first hand knowledge of the B4 working through a Keyboard and sound system and also firsthand knowledge of how a C3 sounds up close and personal and you feel the B4 is the closest emulation of a B3 or C3 I respect your opinion.

I am still waiting for a reply from Ilio regarding Charlie's implementation of Percussion and also if it can be easily set up to work in a live situation. There really is not much information at all about Charlie on Ilio's web site.

I'm also going to do a google search to see if there are other professional reviews of Charlie and also see what the experts say about the B4. I know several Keyboardists who praise the B4 highly but when I downloaded the demo and played it through my computer I was less than thrilled with the sound. But again, it is a whole other ball game completely if I were to play the B4 through the Keyboard and an external sound system and I realize that. But since Charlie sounded so much better than the B4 demo IMO I can't help but think it will also sound even that much better through my Keyboard and an external sound system too.

I agree though that Charlie should have Percussion implementation to give it that real B3, C3 sound. Since they didn't include a demonstration of Percussion in their demos I am assuming it doesn't implement it at all. But I am holding out hope that it does, and am still waiting for the final verdict from Ilio regarding that.

Thanks for your reply AJ.

Best regards,
Mike

If you wanted to actually hear the B4 coming through your keyboard and then to your sound system, it can be done Mike. Simply route your soundcard's audio output to the audio inputs of your board. I strongly recommend setting a very low level for both the signal / audio coming out of the soundcard and using a low input setting and adjusting from there ( the Tyros has adjustable inputs I would think ).

I used to do this when I first started using soundfonts. I would use the PA80 as the midi controller, and then send the soundfont's audio ( soundcard to be exact output ) back into the PA80 so that I could process it with the PA80's internal effects and / or layer the soundfont's output with an internal PA80 voice. I was able to make some very cool synth sounds this way, and also was able to supplement what I thoguht was a somewahat weak PA80 ac piano voice.

I no longer do that as my current soundcard is actually the driver for my entire soundsystem. Via a mixer, my internal ( soft ) instruments and my hardware are processed through it before it gets routed to my studio's sound system.

One other cool trick I've used was to send the PA80's internal guitar sounds out and then back into the PA80 so that I could use the guitar effects from the plug in vocal harmony / guitar board. I set the PA80 up so the internal voices would not play through the speakers or the main outputs ( 1 and 2 ). I then sent the guitar sound out through outputs 3 and 4, and rerouted them back into the board via the line inputs. As I mentioned, I set the board up so that internal voices would not play through the main outputs ( 1 and 2 ), but so that the audio coming from the line inputs would. it worked nicely.

AJ

I downloaded the B4 demo again and this time played it through my Delta 44 card routed to my external sound system. I agree it sounds alot better through a good sound system.

I tried to get the B4 demo to work through my Keyboard by way of my Midi Input/Outputs from my computer to my Tyros. I was unable to get it to work that way.

As for routing it through my Mixer and into the Tyros Inputs; the Tyros' inputs are Mono so the resulting output through the Mains would be mono likewise I am assuming. Too much of a hassle in a live setting IMO.

I heard through a person's testimony about the B4 that it was very difficult to play through a Keyboard Live. He also said it sounded "compressed", the 'leakage' was missing, it had bad harmonics in the higher registers and without bass plays flat and nasal sounding. He also said it was impossible to play like an Organ through a normal Master Keyboard, ie., you would need a special Keyboard that would need to have Waterfall keys, drawbars, and an actual Swell Pedal. A normal Keyboard and a PC were totally insufficient in his opinion. He also said it sounded creepy?!?!?

Any way, upon further investigation I've come to the conclusion that if I want a B3 clone I now know which one to get. And it won't be the B4 OR Charlie.

Take a listen to these:

Nord Electro 2 #1

Nord Electro 2 #2

Nord Electro 2 #3

Nord Electro 2 Rhodes and Organ

Nord Electro 2 Organ factory demo

Listen to Nord Electro Organ in Mix

Hands down the best B3 hardware clone I've heard so far and needless to say - way better than either Ilio's Charlie or NI's B4 IMO. Plus the fact I wouldn't have to lug around a Laptop and pray that the B4 or Charlie wouldn't crash on me in the middle of a song when using it Live. The Clavia Nord Electro 2 is a 73 Key B3 clone that also has several other sounds in it most notably Rhodes, Clavinet, Acoustic Pianos, Wurlitzer and of course the B3 Organ sounds.

For an excellent B3 clone the Nord Electro 2 should be on every Organ lovers must have Gear list IMHO. And at $1,699 for the 73 Key version (at zzounds.com) it makes it all the more enticing.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: I wanted to also mention that the Nord Electro 2 is software updateable so when a new OS comes out you can flash update the Keyboard. Also Clavia gives away new sounds when they become available. So instead of buying a new Keyboard when the next version comes out you basically 'get' a new Keyboard by way of new OS updates and new sounds that they let you download for free. So it stays on the cutting edge longer. Very cool!

I think I'm talking myself into getting one. I just love the B3 sound! It's a pity the Tyros doesn't have a worthy B3 patch. A lot of the Organ sounds are good on the Tyros but Yamaha missed the boat on giving Tyros owners a superb B3 sounding Organ like the Nord Electro 2 has.

Before I would get a Nord Electro 2 I think I would like to buy CD-Soft's Custom Drawbar sounds first to see if they would satisfy my B3 sweet tooth. Too bad CD-Soft doesn't take CC's and make the Voices downloadable over the internet. Roel has stated that CD-Soft is suppose to offer that feature in the near?? future. Hopefully sooner than later..

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-02-2004).]

As I remarked in my earlier post on this subject, I use the ‘Native Instruments B4’ live onstage running on an IBM 600E- P2-366Mhz laptop running Win98..its connected via an Eidrol USB to MIDI converter linked to a Yamaha S03 keyboard, my laptop is not a high spec machine but there is no noticeable latency if you run the software through the DirectSound option on your sound card. The need for ‘Waterfall Keys’ only applies if the player uses excessive ‘Palm Wipes’ (running the palm of your hand up/down the keyboard) but this criticism applies to any keyboard used for Hammond style playing, its no big deal I can assure you.

The B4 also runs fine via the Game Port MIDI an your PC but you must active the MPU401option in the MIDI setup page for the software, if it plays via the computer keyboard then it WILL play through MIDI to ANY keyboard if set up correctly. I have set up my favorite registrations, which are selectable from the S03 keyboard; I control the volume (swell) from a standard stereo volume pedal between the laptop and my amp and all in all the setup works flawlessly.

When I first tried NI B4 I went through a lot of my Hammond recordings and played along with them, I can tell you that it was hard to separate one from the other and thus it is the same while plying live onstage, obviously a good knowledge of Hammond drawbar registrations helps enormously and the correct use of reverb and EQ help the authenticity

I have listened to Charlie and IMHO the Leslie simulator does not seem to up to the B4’s, looking at the control panel for Charlie there does not seem to be separate rotor and mike placing adjustments etc, the percussion issue has been mentioned what about the Hammond style Vibrato and Chorus…a very important aspect of the Hammond sound… has that been addressed in Charlie???

NI B4 is still ahead in my opinion and is going to be hard to beat.

Larigot

'keybplayer' can you email me, I have some info for you..

gee_dees@yahoo.co.uk

My wife wants us to upgrade our computer (we currently own a 486 33mhz ), she has come to that decision without a prompting from me. WoooHoooo. There is a soft synth in my future. NI B4 here I come.
Larigot,
I appreciate your following information, a swell pedal is a must for organ playing, velocity sensitivity, does not cut it. Often times a pedal withdraw is used. Here is the quote, " I control the volume (swell) from a standard stereo volume pedal between the laptop and my amp and all in all the setup works flawlessly."
Starkeeper

Where might we find this Z3?

ZR-3 to be exact. Get it here:
http://www.kvr-vst.com/get/213.html

AJ

Does the Z3 require a host? I'm still vague on the technological names.
Starkeeper

Yes, It requires a vst host. Sonar 3, Cubase, n track, or any other VST host will do. Bidule is an example of a freeware host( for now while it's still in beta, but it works fine )

ZR3 is a very decent piece of software ( especially for free ). I don't think it compares at all to the B4 though. I don't think DA organ does either.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-03-2004).]

Well,

I was finally able to get B4 to work in conjunction with my Midi ports and play it through my Tyros. I had the midi cables reversed so after correcting that everything was okay.

Here's my take of NI's B4. Although most of the patches sounded good and some even very good I would still hesitate to lay down 200 bucks for it. One of the reasons is I was having trouble with the Keys on B4 "sticking" in the ON position while I continued to play the Keys on my Tyros. I had to stop my playing, look at the B4 interface to see the offending Key or Keys that were stuck in the ON position and then hit the offending key[s] to "un-stick" it/them.

Sometimes I would hit a key on my Tyros and no corresponding note would eminate from the B4. So every so often I was running into "dead" notes that wouldn't sound. But the real pain was the "stuck on" notes that essentially 'ruined' the song or piece I was playing.

One time I even got a pop up from Windows XP saying it had recovered from a serious error and the program (that was the offender) must close. Guess who the offending program was? Yup, B4.

I know you can adjust the latency of the program at which B4 responds, ie., the lag time, but no matter how I adjusted the latency I still had the hanging "ON" notes problem. PS: I also set the Aftertouch on my Tyros to different settings to see if it would help. It did help the 'dead note' problem some but it didn't eliminate it completely.

My computer is not the problem because my CPU is way above B4's system requirements and I got a Gig of superfast dual channel DDR memory, etc.

I do know the Midi specification is barely able to keep up with itself when transfering data from the computer to the Keyboard so possibly the Midi data transporting from the computer (by way of B4) to the Keyboard is the bottleneck and causing the glitches. That is my guess anyway.

Conclusion?? I'll pass on the B4 because playing live on stage is mission critical and if there is even a hint that a program could cause malfunction or glitches in a live situation (let alone in the quiet of your Home Studio) it ain't worth the bother.

My next step is to wait for CD-Soft.de to allow international online transactions by way of a CC and instant downloads of purchased Custom Voices over the internet. I've previewed all of the Drawbar Custom Voices on CD-Soft's web site and many of them are excellent.

If CD-Soft doesn't come through I will have to live with what I've got in regards to Organ Voices on my Tryos or possibly end up getting a Clavia Nord Electro 2 as a last resort. The Electro 2 is hands down the best hardware B3 clone I've heard as I've stated before.

Best regards,
Mike