Sounds like the "newest" trend in arranger keyboards is including "76" keys.

I first started out playing piano when I was 4 yrs old (back in the sixties) on an 88 note acoustic piano. When shopping for my first synth (about 10 years ago), I told myself that I would only play an 88 note weighted action board. That quickly changed whem the weight, dimensions, and logistics of hauling around such a heavy and awkward board made me quickly decide on a 76 note weighted keyboard (Fatar 1176) instead. I still vowed I'd "never" play a 61 note synth-action board though, until.... one day I found I wasn't able to fit even the Fatar 1176 (including case) into a compact sized car's trunk which I had borrowed because my larger car was in the repair shop. Even this 76 note weighted action keyboard was getting to be too akward and heavy to haul around regularly gigging. When I first discovered the Technics KN5000 arranger (61 note synth action) keyboard, I initially thought that the relatively lightweight board and only 61 synth action keys would not be acceptable for playing and sounding professional. I've come a long way (2-1/2 years) from that initial accessment. I quickly adapted to the synth action and can now pretty easily switch back and forth between my acoutic grand piano (Steinway B) and the KN5000 synth action board.

I also learned that arranger keyboard playing techniques (w/ auto accompaniment)are different than playing a synth (without auto accompaniment). In auto accompaniment mode you have bass, drums & instrumental accompaniment. You as the keyboard player play chords in the left hand or two handed-in full keyboard mode (to trigger correct accomp bass line/harmonies). Thus there really is no need for the extended keyboard beyond 61 keys. The low range of notes (bottom end) are played by the auto accompaniment "bass line part" so you don't need or want to play (via your live keyboard playing) this range of notes. The comp chords you want to play are typically limited to the mid-keyboard range (C3 - C4) in order to sound appropriate in the context of the band. The "only" advantage (in my opinion) to having a 76 note keyboard on an arranger keyboard is for playing solo piano (no auto arranger accompaniment). If you primarily play the arranger keyboard using the auto accompaniment feature, I don't see any advantage to purchasing the heavier and longer (akward to transport) 76 note arranger keyboard.

My opinion (especially if you are a gigging musician who needs to transport your arranger board to/from gigs) is to stay with the 61 key arranger board, especially if you primarily play in auto-accompaniment mode. The 61 synth board is adequate (abeit marginally) for limited solo keyboard performance, but I do think it's worth the trade-off for size/weight (easy transportability). If you do a lot of solo keyboard playing (no auto accompaniment) and/or keeping your keyboard at home, then the new 76 note arranger keyboards may be something to consider.

I'm interested in hearing feedback and thoughts from others on this new 76 keyboard arranger trend.

Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA

I can't speak as a giggin musican, but I have a 61-key arrangers and a 76-key controller, and I vastly prefer the 76 keys. I have gone through my music books and found a good many songs that were not arranged for 61 keys, but fit easily within 76 keys. When you split a keyboard, 76 keys allow bigger sections. In addition to the controller and the arranger, I have an XV-5080 sound module which can load samples. Sometimes the soundsets are cut off when the 61 keys are used, but rarely when a 76-key board is used.

A major factor in a decision on the number of keys is whether or not you want internal speakers. If you do, then 61 keys is more practical. If you do not, then 76 keys gives more playability for the same weight.

Hey Scottyee!
Your right about the 76 key concept. The other thought I have heard is some just feel better about the 76 keys, more comfortable if you will. You should ck. out the GenMusic SK760 Specs at the Peavey site it is a pro arranger W/76 keys/no speakers. Dwnload the manual for it, it has many interesting features. One feature I like is the option to load samples from Kurzweil and others and increase storage by 32Meg. I wish there was a place locally I could try it? I'm selling my I30 and looking for another arranger. Let me and the forum know what you think.

For some reason, I went through my old Judy Collins Songbook. It first came out in 1969 and is still in print (I believe). So it has staying power, even though it would not appeal to everyone. Her early career was guitar with bass backup, later, the piano was used. The Songbook has 55 songs, all of which can be played as written with 76 keys. 29 songs can be played as written with 61 keys, and another 19 can be played with a 1-octave up transposition. This leaves 7 songs that would require 76 keys, unless you transpose to a new key. For me, a 76-key board is worth it for that last 12%. Your songbook may differ.

People use autoaccompaniment in different modes. Scott uses full keyboard mode so 61 keys should suffice. People who use 1-finger mode or a standard fingered mode will in general find 61 keys enough. I happen to prefer what is called Fingered 2 on the PSR8000 and I think On-Bass fingered elsewhere. In this mode, different inversions sound differently. While the default split for autoaccompaniment is about 1.5 octaves, this mode really calls for at least two octaves. For example, a B7 chord with B bass cannot be formed on the bottom 1.5 octaves of the 61-key board. This leaves only three octaves for the right hand part. Depending on the key, this can seem like only two octaves. With a 76-key board, you can get two octaves of autoaccompaniment plus more that four octaves on the right hand side of the split.

Having a 76-key board requires external speakers, whereas 61-key boards typically have speakers (and amplification) built in. Even where external speakers are used, the internal speakers can be helpful as monitors. In my mind, the most important tradeoff between 76 and 61 keys is the presence or absence of internal speakers.

JCKeys asked about the GEM SK760. This is electronically the same as the SK880, which has 88 keys. We have an active member who uses this keyboard and you should get his opinion. My problem with this keyboard is that it does not store many custom styles in solid-state memory. If you want to play around with the thousands of free styles available on the web, better style handling would be desirable. Also, the sound ROM comes up short--under 20MB, while the soon to be introduced PSR9000PRO is at 48MB. It might be worth waiting for the next generation GEM arranger. I do think the ability to read samples (especially multisamples) in commercially available formats, mainly Akai, is a big advantage of the GEM.

Interesting points you make Clif. I agree that having 76 (or even 88) is definitely preferable over 61 keys. There are certainly a number of solo piano (pianistic) limitations when there are less keys at your disposal, but I feel that when playing the keyboard in arranger "auto accompaniment" style that 61 keys are (abeit minimally) sufficient.

Clif, I actually play both in "full keyboard mode" and "split keyboard mode" depending on the song and style I want to achieve.

I am able to play and voice all my "left hand" (split keyboard mode) chords within a two octave (usually just 1-1/2 octaves) range. For the B7 chord you mentioned, play that in the first inversion (D#-F#-A-B) which will allow you to play farther to the left of the keyboard and also give you a tighter closed voicing. If you utilize all chord voicing inversions, you should not have to use more than an octave and a half to cover all the chord progressions in any given song. One important key to attaining a professional sound is to move minimally (changing (moving) only one or two voices(fingers)) to affect a harmonic chord change. This is referred to as "smooth voice leading". An example of this in the context of the B7 chord you presented: standard IIm7 - V7 - I major pop progression: F#m7 - B7 - E major.

Voice F#m7: D#-F#-A-C#
Voice B7 : D#-F#-A-B (move only one finger)
Voice EMaj: E -G# -B

Clif, I realize that you like to use the Yamaha mode where different chord inversions played trigger different auto accomp patterns to be played. Still, I suggest that you play your chord progressions in a way to achieve "smooth voicing leading" (utilizing chord inversions to move hand/fingers minimally). This will most achieve the professional sounding chord progression results we are all after.

One final note regarding 76 note keyboards which I also mentioned on another thread:
Because 76 note keyboards are longer, it is more awkward to transport because of its' greater length. Also, some keyboards have the majority of it's weight focussed at "one end" of the keyboard which makes it even more awkward to carry.

Scott

PS: I'm curious to find out "what" songs (Judy Collins?) you are not able to play (because of insuficient keyboard range?) on your 61 note arranger board. What is the highest and lowest melodic note on these specific songs?

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 11-07-2000).]

Hi Scott, thanks for you input, but I am not sure I follow you. The reason I play in the mode that distinguishes inversions is to allow smoother transitions during chord sequences. I am imitating the walking base style of guitar picking that I use. Sometimes that means playing a B7 with B as the lowest note. That is why 1.5 octaves is not enough. If I did not care about the chord transitions, then I could pick the inversion that fit the split.

I wish the keyboard manufacturers would heed your complaints about size and weight. My excellent Roland A-50 76-key with polyaftertouch weighs less than 25 pounds. Of course, it does not make sounds, but the electronics should not add that much to the weight. As to length, see how the 76 key Fatars and Alesis 7.1 (same keyboard) are designed without controls to the left. The length of these is comparable to a 61-key arranger. Another alternative is Kurzweil's portable piano which saving space and mechanical problems with with ribbon controllers. Unfortunately, Yamaha has elected to add a lot of unnecessary volume to its PSR9000Pro.

One configuration I would like to see is the organ dual-manual used for portable arrangers. Two 4-octave keyboards, one on top of the other, but again without a lot of controls to the side. There could be a lot of uses for this design. The lower half could be autoaccompaniment, while the top lead. Also, the keybaord could be used for microtonal applications, with one manual tuned 1/4 tone from the other. Or one level could be used for percussion, or to trigger things.

For a light-weight 76-key system, using available products, how about a Fatar 76-key board with a Solton X4 module? Of course, it is in two pieces, but it should not be hard to carry.

Whether or not I end up buying one, I think the 76-key arrangersa are good news for all of us. I think they will help overcome the prejudices facing arrangers. I also think it is great that the market is developing to the point where an arranger is presented in multiple form factors.

The follow Judy Collins songs as written do not fit 61 keys--
Hard Lovin' Loser
Marat/Sade
Michael from Mountains
Both Sides Now
Bird on the Wire
Pity the Poor Immigrant (Bb-2 to Eb3)
My Father (Bb-2 to Bb3)

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 11-07-2000).]

Until the G1000, all my other keyboards used to be 61 keys (except the real piano). Since I don't play from songbooks (all by ear), I did not have a problem with it at the time, but now that I am used to 76 keys, it will be really hard to go back - longer keyboard makes it practical to split right hand into two zones (and still have enough keys for each to play). It has also altered my playing style a bit - I find myself playing playing many disco-type songs with the piano-style left hand, and a dance piano layered over it, so that I can add extra variety to the accompaniment section.

At the same time, I like having the built-in speakers. My pet peeve with the current crop of the speakered keyboards is that most high-end instruments have such a long chassis (with space wasted on either side of the 61 keys) that it should be trivial to add another few keys on each side. And, BTW, I don't care about the modulation wheel and pitch bend, these function may easily be assigned to an aftertouch. Alternately, it may be useful to re-create the design Yamaha used about 10 years ago, to add roll-bars in front and below the keyboard, so that you can rotate them with your thumb without taking the rest of the fingers from the keyboard.

Regards,
Alex

Listening to GEM keyboards before buying will help you in the following way: if you like the sounds and styles, that is it, do not look any further. If not, look further. *smile*

Hey Guys,
Get you a Casio WK-1800!! 76 keys alot of tones, 130 rythems & cheap!!

I'm new on this forum and I've enjoyed this talk about the 76 keys I mostly play live, and its kind of makes you red faced when your playing on the upper end and run out of keys. Thats why as soon as I can I'm going to get me one with 76 keys. I may get me a controler and a module.
Thats my opinion.
Cheers,
Nobby

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I have been looking for an arranger keyboard too. Today I had the chance to try the Solton X1 and a GEM SK760.
X1 has realy good sounds (flute - brass etc.)
yet SK760 has a great user interfase and excellent accompaniments (I think better than G1000, EM2000, I30, X1, PSR9000, KN, etc.)
It's some other great and very useful features. I will be buying one for sure!

Fatih