AJ - I noticed in your post under 'advice on buying arrange' - that you play a fair amount of jazz. As strictly a jazz musician I am trying to figure out how to get an arranger to perform a task that for me is central to my needs and concept of how I can use it. I am talking to Dan O'neil and others about this - maybe you can shed some light!!

Playing with strictly an upright bass player - I want to add percussion to this mix and occasionally some backing accompaniment. But I want to have access to non-rhythmic and rhythmic intros, interludes, and endings at the press of a button. I had thought that I could store stand alone pre-recorded sequences with a particular song or song style - that get loaded into something like a performance pad when the song/song style is cued up off the disc for play. There may be other ways to accomplish this - say recording a sequence into a variation button. The trick is - I need to be able to decide ahead of time if that passage should play with or without rhythm accompaniment - maybe even its own separate rhythm. I guess the net effect is is a format which is part song style and partly prerecorded song to play against.

Can you think of anyway I might come close to accomplishing this. The point of it all is to create space in the song which is a departure from rhythm/beat - therby giving tunes the capacity to sound far more spontaneous or give one the ability to play along with far more intricate tunes.

thanks much
Mike up North

Mike,
Why not consider sequencing it as you want it, into a song, save to floppy, then just load the floppy and it would give you the type of backing that you recorded.
Terry

[This message has been edited by Jocko (edited 11-16-2001).]

Hi Terry

As far as backing goes - what I want is to choose when the backing comes in and out. The thing I am referring to here has more to do with choosing a separate rhythmic/non rhythmic backing/part - within the song that is a definite departure from the body of the song - like in an orchestral piece where the time signature and mood changes - except that I want to be able to pull that up whenever I chose - not in the same place in the song every time - say for instance you were playing along on C minor stretching out for an unspecified length and then when the mood struck you would segue into a different part of the tune by pressing a button - and when that part was coming to an end you could trigger a re-entry into the normal accompaniment part of the tune.

This always sounds so much more complicated when I try and write it down - I am trying to access sequences during a song which are not necesarily part of the backing.

regards
mike

Hi Mike,

Pads are an excellent way to insert a sequence of a single instrument at any point in a song. My 2000 and the PA80 both have user pad functions. In combination with using registration memories, there are many ways you could set up a song and although registrations don't help in making any actual adjustments to the notes in a style, the registrations will recall multipad settings ( user or otherwise ) any instrument patch / effect changes, additions or subtractions of parts to a style, the voices ( patches ) you actually play in real time, and the actual style or variation itself. There are many other parameters that can be set up as well in the registration memories ( effects, mixer settings, etc ). There are many ways to set your song up in a modern arranger with registrations, so if you do know what you want to do ahead of time, you can set it up through different registrations and change everything on the fly.

In reality, when I play jazz stuff ( which by no means is all that I play ), I often only use the styles to help me with ideas, chord progressions, and things like that. But it is also nice to have the drums and other parts set the way you'd like them first, and then have these elements as styles to play around with chord progressions later. I have completed whole songs in this manner as well. If I need to compose more complex midi backing, particularly drums because I am so inept at playing / recording them in real time, I more often than not use either Jammer Pro software ( which allows me to totally edit its' styles in great detail or make new ones from scratch and play them back instantly ) or I use the Jazz sequencer. I have created styles both from scratch and with the help of jammer pro and used them as Jazz backings in the PA80. Jammer ( and Jazz seq also to an extent ) will create some of the most abstract and complex drum and bass lines that I could ever imagine ( and that I would find next to impossible to do myself ). By using the PA80's midi to style tool, I have inserted theses sequences into my PA80 as style variations. Now that there is a similar freeware tool for the PSR series ( and at first glance more detailed control from within the software), I want to try in on my PSR 2000 as well. The reason I don't always compose this way is that often I require so many variations for one song and it just adds extra steps for me to make styles or variations. It is just sometimes easier to sequence a whole song out from scratch for me, particularly with help from Jammer or Jazz seq. Also, I make styles in Jammer but they aren't rigid in the way that they are in an arranger, meaning that each bar, depending on what elements I use in a style, can vary from a little to quite a bit from the preceding bar within the same "style variation" , which of course reduces the need to have so many style variations.
What you said to Terry is exactly why I require so many variations in my styles for one piece and that is where registration memory really helps. Rather than trying to change parameters in real time or add, alter, or delete instrument parts when I'm playing, when I do make or alter styles I tend to set that stuff up right into the style and / or registration memory itself, so that all I have to do is go from one registration or style variation to the next. In my style, Var A and B might have almost the exact same drum or bass line progression, but a piano backing might change from A to B, or a Horn might appear in B where there was none in A, etc. It definitely can be done Mike, no doubt, it's just for me that I might require 3 entire styles or even more to compose 1 jazz fusion piece. Also changes in timing, key signature etc are doable too, at least by going from style to style in the same song. For me, sometimes going from one variation to another or even one style to the next because the second style is just a continuation of the first (..ie the need for 8 or 10 variations..etc) often beats trying to change a bunch of parameters on the fly, especially when the part I am playing in real time is a bit challenging to begin with.
Again this is where the right settings in my registration memories really helps a ton.


AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-16-2001).]

LOL, I had inadvertently deleted my entire first paragraph in my last reply Mike but it's there now

AJ

Thanks very much AJ

I think what you are telling me is that I can accomplish what i want through combinations of style variations and registration settings. I think I understand that these combos could be used to initiate a passage that was out of time and for all practical purposes sounds like another tune all together. Having access to something like that - particularly a very rubato sounding part - is what i want - divorced from the prevailing beat and tempo of the song.

Do I have it right yet???????????lol

I am at a disadvantage since I have not been around a board that has this registration memory feature. I am starting to wonder if my needs might not be well met by the psr2000 or even the Solton SD1 instead of waiting for something like the new GEM Genysys which may well be a high priced item.

Thanks very kindly - here in Alaska it is difficult to try out new keyboards - so often I have to work out something with a dealer from the lower 48 to try it out and return it if it doesn't fit the bill. With trying to utilize an arranger in my music - I have even more research to do it seems. I needed to try and find out what the practical limits of arrangers are and whether or not the upper end units will fit with my playing styles.

regards
Mike H

You're quite welcome Mike, and yes, I think that you are on the right track with how the arranger boards can work for you. I can do everything I described on either the PA80 or the 2000, so after that it comes down to the the styles themselves ( I like both but I guess I prefer the PA80s overall ), ease of use ( 2000 has the edge here ), and last but for me most important the sounds, which are good on both, but for my ears a bit better and with more editability on the PA80 ( I know ..sounds are subjective ) .
Of course editability is more important to me when making synth type sounds or trying to alter a guitar patch to make it sound more realistic.

I believe Scott Yee, who also plays jazz, does a good bit of writing work with his arrangers and he too recently purchased the 2000. It will be interesting to see how he measures it against his Technics boards ( great boards from what I've seen of them, I had one yrs ago..so many yrs I can't remember the model # any more..lol ), for the task of writing or composing with the 2000.

I know very little of the GEM or Solton series, so others might be more qualified to comment on them. Solton styles, even converted for korg or Yamaha boards are cool though.

If I had to rely solely on the arrangers Mike, I guess I could still write in the styles I prefer, but having them with the additional software I mentioned, plus a few other programs, really helps to make it work for me. I use the PA80 more as one would use a synth or workstation than an arranger at times, but it is up to the task. A lot of the so called "pro" guys don't always agree on this, but for me one of the best features is having the speakers attached right to the board itself. Good Luck Mike,

AJ

Coming from a college background in jazz and playing in a jazz combo professionally, I think that the PSR2000 provides the tools I need for creating realistic sounding combo jazz on an arranger keyboard, especially because it supports the 'rootless chord' recognition which is such a trademark of the sound of modern/swing jazz. The 2000's jazz styles are admittedly weak and limited in selection, but I was able to easily import (via EMC style converter) the GREAT jazz swing styles from my KN5000 into the PSR2000 and now my PSR2000 really SWINGS! On the subject of importing styles: I've had EXCELLENT SUCCESS at importing styles (via EMC Style Converter) from Solton, Yamaha, GEM into my Technics KN5000, so I think that though a keyboard's built in styles is certainly important, most important is the the quality its sounds and features.

As AJ outlined so well, you can employ a number of arranger performance techniques which will add spark & spontaneity, and a sense of live interaction - abeit with yourself: a form of arranger masturbation?!

On the PSR2000 you can create patterns up to 32 bars long. : D: If you need more than that, then you're probably better off just sequencing an entire song and playing along with a midi file. You can instantly call up different custom pattern variations via Registsration Memory buttons (1-8) at a moments notice, switching from one variation to another as needed. Each of these can have unique instrument/EQ setups. This combined with playing the multipads LIVE, and triggering fills and breaks at just the right places, should give you all the things you really need to create an exciting performance with the feeling of a LIVE band. If you want more than this, you'd better hire real LIVE pro musicians.

The tools are available to us NOW. It's now up to us to work to MASTER the techniques. . . and arranger keyboard performance is truly an ART!

Thanks everyone - AND I thought of one very specific example of what I might want to do:

Lets say that you wanted a horn or string section to hold some sort of a complex maj or min chord through a few bars while you played a series of related but different scale tone chords against it for maximum tension and resolve - a chord solo if you will. In that example I wouldn't be bothered if the drum kit kept up the basic rhythm. So I hit the pad where that sequence was stored in and voila. Same with other related sequences in the same song. So of course they were stored with the song and get loaded back in to the variation or performance pads when the song is pulled up. Next time I play the song I might want the same sequence w/o the drum backing. No problem - just stop the acc. and hit a button to trigger the prerecorded sequence - and you won't interfere with it or trigger another accompaniment chord no matter where you play on the keyboard.

I guess 32 measures worth is quite a bit - and certainly the chords could spill over from measure to measure to give the impression of a totally different flow.

It sure sounds to me like the fundamental goal of triggering a pre-recorded sequence with or without rythmic or chordal relationship to the main body of the song is doable.

thanks to everyone for the input..........

Mike H