I dont know what they did from the 3k......but this S900 display is terrible.......in order to see the display you have to TILT UP the keyboard from the back a good 2 inches to see it other wise no matter how you adjust it its almost non viewable unless you look straight down at it ;(.....nothing wrong with my unit they are all like this!!!.......Ive talk with many owners who have to put some underneath to see it while playing....so they improve it by putting the adjust knob on the deck versus the rear panel & then dont give it enough lift to view it!!!
Great sound....BAD DESIGN......what say you?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-04-2008).]

I say someone needs to introduce a brand called
Ro-korg-aha. Donny I can understand your frustration. Seems one manufacturer gets it right on many features, then falls down somewhere else.

I'm rather tall, 6'2", so it doesn't seem to be an issue with me...I have heard others complain about it...yeah...I'd say they could have done it better.

Bad bad Yamaha....SHAME!

Ian

I like just about everything on the S900 ---BUT the display –grrrrrr -- DNJ is right, not being anywhere 6’2” the window is not good.

I have taken away the music stand and added a small TV – it’s fair. The image some times shakes and the main page is split, the bottom is on the top and the top is on the bottom. Any one have any clues?

Question: Why would you sell the S900? Because of the window! (Display)

John,
Check the Video Display settings by pressing Function/Video Out. Some monitors require the PAL setting, while others work best on NTSC.
Just a guess, but it may solve your problem.
Gary

Gary thank you, I have tried – and it is still the same

John C.

Ian cut the crap its terrible plain & simple unless your blind!! maybe no one want to speak up.....on top of that heres a few more BAD things with the S900....lettered access buttons on both sides of the keyboard A,B,C etc etc are very hard to see being they are the SAME Black color as the display bezel!!!!
USB ^ Mic inputs are in the worst place possible......when using an APEX KB stand they are totally blocked forcing you to pull the KB out a few inches....this is not fiction Ian PURE FACT....Yamaha design team really screwed up in these areas.......
sounding good is only one part of good keyboard.

Yep you're right Donny.

BAD BAD BAD YAMAHA!

SHAME SHAME SHAME!

Now I feel better.

What do you mean by "cut the crap"?

I'm agreeing with you, chum.


Ian

Donny,
You are right about each fact --- but I am sure we can do that to any keyboard out there.

Let’s list the bad things and then the good things so that all that have an interest will have a true view of the S900.

In fact I would love to see that with all the keyboards we talk about on this forum.

John C.

Hey, a thought:
Why do the bad things in this world get far more exposure than the good things. There are many reasons I guess, but what we have here is different, it’s all about us, the love of music, the performance and keyboards. It is not the same.

John C

If I’m preaching I apologize.

Donny .... ANOTHER reason why I like my kn6000 ...
t.

For what you get , is what you get.

Meaning = You spend < 1600 for a KB you get 1600 worth of quality.

Sure , it is a great buy as far as A/KB`s are concerned , however it is things like the display , key-bed , buttons wheels and a painted shell , that the consumer really pays for in the end.

Meaning = If you don`t baby it , it could fall apart or fail.

Just my opinion,

Gary 

I have no problems with the display. I'm 5'8".

Beakybird

The main problem I see is a brand gets a good design, then instead of adding to it (tweaking it) on the next replacement model they delete some of the good things about the previous model.
This happens so many times it's as if the R&D department are all new and never saw the good points of previous models.

I've been working a tilt machanism for a friend that has an S900, and with luck I'll have it dont by the end of this week, or early next week. Essentially, it is constructed from aluminium channel and fits directly on the arms of an X-stand. It has a rubber strip to protect the bottom of the keyboard and also prevent side slippage, and at the front end of each is a stop that prevents the keyboard from sliding off the stand from the player side.

If everything works out, I'll post photos sometime next week and also the design specs. It will sure make life a lot easier for keyboard players that sit while performing. I do not stand while performing, and most of the performers I know now opt to sit as well.

One of the problems with ALL keyboad displays is the manufacturers are still living in the dark ages (no pun intended). The marine industry solved this problem more than two decades ago by utilizing super-twist technology, and they frequently use march larger LCD displays than any keyboard display I've ever seen. The other problem is the stupid-ass that decided to use LED indicators for the active buttons. Even in a brightly lit room they are difficult to see. If you're performing outdoors, even in the shade, they're invisible. What supreme, overpaid idiot came up with this one?

Oh well, back to the drawing board,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Let's place this into perspective... if you are going to treat your instruments roughly, this likely isn't the one for you... albeit, if you are looking for a great transportable unit to take with you on your solo arranger gigs, this is a awesome piece.

Sure, it's not perfect, but neither are the PA-800, G-70, E-80, E-60 and Tyros2...and I have a feeling there will be issues with the new PA2XPro.

Main thing is...I'm playin' and havin' fun...can't beat that.

How about you Gary?


Ian

Donny, I know of a nice E-60 for sale. Maybe you could dicker with owner and get him down to where the sale price should really be. You could even make money on the deal if you can get market value for your S900.

I knew that would get your attention .....maybe when you talk to your bosses at Yamaha you can vent a bit more & make some sort of impact on the next wave ...boy if they send me that survey I'll need a book to finish it with suggestions........or even better yet I'll confer with Diki at any rate things need to be changed at the Yamaha design team these things obviously slipped by under the wore!

Tony Please elaborate for us......you think Technics is reading this for a comeback? Hmmmmmmm?

do you stand or sit when you play? Im 5'10" sit down normaly and play you will see what I mean.

Nah...they don't listen to me...I'm just one of Yamaha's minions...but always remember, "The more it stays the same, the less it changes"

Very true Ian , ALL have there good and bad points.

It really is too bad that arrangers as a whole seem to get a bum rap.

They are great to play , now as for me , still waiting.

Waiting for what , you may ask !

You might know the answer to that far better than I my friend

At least we can agree that the new "whatever" from Yamaha will not have built in speakers.
It will not have a HD
Nor will it be the same `ol / same `ol .
Maybe a hybrid between a synth and arranger ?
It will have Extended SA voicing.

Am I getting warm ?

Will it be March or October ?



I do hope you get something, Gary...you must miss playing...I know you got the old Hammond, but it you and I both know it ain't the same.

Yeah, I know what you mean by the new one in...well, let's just say it won't be perfect either, though it may be perfect for you.

Ian

Trust me, guys, this is not just a Yamaha issue.

From day 1 I have said the G70 (and probably all the other Roland's, they all look like the same screen angle was used) needs it's screen tilted up just a little.

Who is designing these thing... Vikings?! If you sit at a natural, piano correct stance, you need to lean in to get the best angle on the display. Time to start using some REAL pianists to design this ergonomic stuff, not the stoop shouldered, hunched up techno-geeks they obviously have working in the design and R&D sweatshops...

BTW, this is NOT me agreeing with Donny (before he flames me for it!)... It must be tough if you can't even RECOGNIZE when someone is agreeing with you. But, then again, just because one is paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T all out to get you, eh?

But Ian as you know the T2 and the Pa2x (not to mention the original Tyros) have a fully tilting adjustable screen. Makes it very easy for those performers relying on screen information.
Of course you are correct about the other stuff though!!
Dennis

Of course, you're right, Dennis...I was mainly responding to Jedi's (Gary) other issues with the S900.

All arrangers, at the very least mid and TOTL, should have some sort of screen adjustment.

Ian

I stand and play - but when I sit to practice, it is definitely hard to see. I took it over my brother's house and his first comment was "you can't see the screen - weird".

Like my technics kn1000 and kn6000
t.

I just cant understand what they were thinking....& who gave the final OK brfore production?

It probably doubles as an exercise machine, you have to play standing up, burn more calories.!!!

Like Gary (travelin' easy),
I have a tilt mechanism at the back of my Ty2.
It's a 2x2" wooden batten
Not for the screen (it tilts already) but I find the slight angle more comfortable for playing.

I'm a home player. I'd have thought you guys with all your fancy stands would already be able to angle your KB's every whichway you want. It seems like a necessary feature for any KB with a fixed screen because there are always going to be some players who find it "wrong" out of the box.
Maybe the stand manufacturers need lobbying too - lol!
Does the 3K screen tilt or is it fixed and "OK"?

John

Hi John,

The PSR-3000's screen is fixed and I find it is not as easy to read as my S900's.

I sit when I play and use a double brace X-stand at the same height for both instruments.

On another note, I'm enjoying your terrific piano sound....so nice to be able to adjust the tone with the mod wheel.

By the way, I modified the Live! Grand for playing Jazz Ballads...simple adjustment...just went to MIXING CONSOLE...FILTER and turned the BRIGHTNESS down to 52...sounds nice and mellow.

Ian

3k is fixed also......


can you post a pic of your lift apparatus?

There needs to either be

A- Tilted up display screens

B- Adjustable up stand arms tiers

C- Design people with brains


carry on.

Donny - There was a touch of irony in my post! - my "apparatus" is nothing more than an unattached 3ft. length of 2x2" underneath the back of the Tyros which sits, not on a stand but on a flat top trolley. Not something which a Pro would want to emulate as a permanent solution I guess.
Looks like Gary's working on something more appropriate in that respect. J

----------------------------------------

Hi Ian, thanks for the feedback.

John

OK John thanx for the info.....Im working on a KB rear lift device myself...its a shame players have to do this on new keyboards .....this should of been addressed in the design room pre production meeting at Yamaha....I hope they are reading this!! What an annoying problem on the S series units.

How about raising your playing height by using a thickly padded artist's bench(and, no I am not making fun of thickly padded artists )...or perhaps, if you play whilst standing, a pair of those thick soled boots...that should help.

Donny,
I'm tall enough at 6'5" that it doesn't bother me, but you can get a couple of rubber door stops and use for props if it's a problem.
My MAIN gripe with S900 is the location of that stupid internet button. I've hit it numerous times trying for exit or something else. You can't see it well in the dark and after you press it, you must wait for it to time out before you can get out of it.
BAD design.
Most everything else is pretty good though.
DonM

Im off to home depot for Rubber doorstops!!

Sorry, guys, but go back and talk to your old piano teacher (you know, the one with the ruler!) about correct posture while playing. Remember what she told you?

Seat hight, just SO...
Piano height, just so... (no adjustment there, anyway!)
Distance from the piano, just so...

These distances weren't coming off the top of her head to torture you. There a recognized 'best' position to sit and play a keyboard, that allows the easiest, freest range of motion for your arms, hands, and fingers. Now imagine the look of horror on her face as you tell her you want to prop up the back of the piano to angle the keys downwards..!

It's all about the angle of your wrist to your arm. There is a natural, unforced one when sitting at a piano, on a bench at the right hight (and, other than children and the very tall or short, that doesn't change much, to the point that most piano stools don't even HAVE a height adjustment). The only reason you tilt a keyboard up or down on a stand should be to preserve that arm/wrist angle for keyboards that are much higher or lower than standard height.

But angling the whole keyboard in a downwards direction, by several degrees, although it will help you to read the display better, certainly won't allow you to PLAY as well.

Or maybe your piano teacher was jiving you....

Again good sound BAD Design.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-05-2008).]

I did notice when looking at and playing the PSR900 at the local music store that the screen
had a plastic covering over it to protect it
It made the screen very hard to read especially
when the light was coming from the front.
I did not remove it but will if I purchase one.
Could this be causing some of the problems.

Cousin Ken.

Ken good point.....maybe thats some kind of tinting shield? & possibly could cause the terrible display viewing difficulties....but I think its more design angle.

Just like plasma and LED TV's, different displays perform better or worse than average when viewed at an angle...

Careful adjustment of the contrast setting can help a little, but other than adjusting the angle of the screen (hopefully without forcing your keyboard into an unnatural angle) there really isn't much you can do. I have never found the G70 to be unreadable at a playing angle, but I DO have to lean in about six inches or so to get the BEST angle. Hopefully, they can get this resolved without raising the hight of the display (it would make finding a case harder), but merely by lowering the front edge a little...

Diki....
its only a matter of about
2 to 2 1/2" raised to get the desired angle....looks like the riubber doorstop is gonna be my salvation on this issue


I have to give the Pa2x, Tyros & Technics units a thumbs up in this area with their Tiltable screens



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-06-2008).]

Ken,

The plastic cover is nothing more than a plastic film that is put in place to prevent scratching the screen surface while shipping--nothing more. The same plastic film is also placed on laptop computer screens and other LCD displays for the same purpose. Once removed, it really doesn't improve on the visibility angle--this remains the same.

LCD displays, even the best sunlight viewable displays, are angle sensitive. The same problem exists on laptop computers. This is the nature of the beast. Obviously, the person who designed the screen failed to consider the position of the person using the device, sitting, standing, tall, short. The display on the PSR-2000, 3000 and most previously designed keyboards is viewable while sitting or standing, however, the best view is usually when the screen is facing directly at the performer. The PSR-3000's display is tilted toward the performer at approximately 20 degrees, which provides a reasonable view while sitting. The S900's screen tilt appears to be about 10 degrees, which seems to account for the viewing problem. The only solution is to either stand while performing, which at my age is out of the question, or tilt the keyboard at a suitable angle for optimum view while sitting. The rubber door stops, however, are not the answer. They would not support the board properly, and most are less than 2-inches high. With luck, I'll begin on the addapter strips tomorrow.

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Of all of those, only PA2X is a touch screen... there are issues there (you'll probably use more force jabbing at a more vertical screen than a flatter one), along with what I suspect MIGHT be durability issues with a motorized mechanism that is going to take a fair pounding over the years. I will feel a lot more comfortable with Korg's new screen after it has shown it's legs for a year or two...

But I think the problem disappears if only the manufacturers recess the lower edge of these screens just a LITTLE bit more (less that 1/2" would make quite a difference) and raising the back edge less that 1/2" too. I just feel for long term reliability and protection, a fixed screen is probably the more durable solution.

Gary....this is not the plastic film that comes with the Kb new that you can peel off & REMOVE....Its a hard plastic piece that is about 1" above the original display ...this could be causing the problem also.

Hi Diki
The Ikarus (Released in 2003) has an 8.4” adjustable touch screen, and the Xenios (Released in 2005) has a motorised 10” touch screen, and there have not been any durability problems, so the Korg one should be fine.

BTW OT have you had a look at this tread yet. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/016814.html


Bill

I never had any problems with the Tilt-up Tyros 2 display either.....at least you could read it in most situations on stage...not a problem.

Donny,

The hard part is merely a protective, plastic cover to prevent the soft segment of the screen from being damaged. I don't think it is polorized, but you can determine this by merely taking a pair or polarized sun glasses and holding them over the screen, then rotate the glasses. If the image remains the same, the plastic cover is not polarized. If it turns black, the plastic cover is polarized. I only had one keyboard that had a polarized cover, and it has been gone for so many years I cannot remember the brand name.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary thanx ....btw...awaiting your newly designed lift mechanism soon

My local music store has offered me a pa800 for $Aus3000.00 and given the difficulty with the PSR900 screen would it be a better buy.
Their quote for the PSR900 is $AUS2425.00.
I presently own a PSR3000.

I am not a rock and roll or jazz fan and lean towards the classical and pre 50's music and am more a singer than an keyboard player.

Cousin Ken

You can only decide whether the screen is a problem for YOU. It's not for me.
Then play both instruments and decide. Only you can choose which has the most features that suit you and the sound that most pleases you.
DonM

I don't think the screen angle should be a deal-breaker... FAR more important issues then that (IMO).

But it IS something to bring loudly to the manufacturer's attention, by any and all means, as it is a design feature that could be corrected easily on the NEXT model they make.

But they'll only do it if you tell them, often and loudly!

I would compare the Tyros 2 & Pa800 not the S900.... additionally as a singer definitly get the Pa800 ....the TC Helicon Vocal processor & harmonizer is miles ahead of Yamaha.

Hi Ken,
didn't realize you were in Aust also.
Is that $3000 as a trade in ??
You could try selling your psr on Ebay.
I saw a second hand psr1500 go for $800 the other day, a PSr3000 should be worth a lot more.
If that's the price without a tradein , it's a bargain.
If it's including the trade, I'd be asking for a price, without a trade in as well.
You may be miles in front if you sell privately.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Caragabal:
[B]

Rikkisbears the price is without a trade in.
The PA800 is not selling and they want to clear the stock.
I have a try on the PA800 this Monday.

I don't want something to complicated but with good recording capabilities for vocals.

I go for these top end boards for quality voices etc.

Cousin Ken

I would definitely snap up the PA800. It is not that there is anything wrong with S900. You just get more for your money.
Bernie

Ken, if you're used to a psr 3000 you would have start from scratch with a korg, as far as OS, wouldn't you?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 02-09-2008).]

Hi Ken,
that's a really good price, they retail for just under $5,000 AUD.

Bear in mind the operating system is different. Fortunately you are in a position to check it out first.

Also check to see it is running the latest operating system 1.51.

Mines only 3 months old but came with the original operating system 1.0
1.5 has apparently made some major improvements including guitar mode & additional guitar sounds.
It's just a software upgrade, downloadable from the Korg site.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Caragabal:
[B]

Display problem on the S900 has been solved!

...........I just stick my wallet underneath the KB dead center where the Forks join together on the Apex KB Stand lifting the back-end of the S900 just enough to view the display.
Works for now

WOW .. I'm surprised that wallet didn't make the back of the kb too high !!! ...

Fran says you still have your Baptism money ...
t.

PS Glad you found a 'workaround' ...

Tony maybe some day when Yamaha finally gets their act together "workarounds" will be a thing of the past ....until then we make due.

hee hee heeeeee...I needed that laugh today !

Is that your wallet stuffed with cash...or one of us regular SZoners wallets..

Donny
How do you handle the two front support legs on the Apex getting in the way of pedals ?
Bernie

I just put the small pedals in front of the right support leg no problems when I use one.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-16-2008).]

I tried my newer pedals and they are high enough to use over the leg. Years ago I had thin stomp pedals that were too thin. I bought my Apex in 1984, and except for a few mars, it is as good as new. I need a double tier sometimes and am pressing the old girl back in service.

I read somewhere that the Roland V-Stands (and possibly their imitators, like Ultimate) always have a permanent slight down angle on the arms. For those with this problem that don't have a wallet as thick as Donny's perhaps it might be worth taking a look at them.

Pretty good cable management and pedal access, too, from what I see....

But I still think that a non-horizontal keyboard is bad for your technique (unless it's higher or lower that normal).

Fran has a Roland V stand .....
Its a nice idea & design...
but it gathers dust in the studio....vs using his Apex deluxe...definitly not for me ....great for a single KB but when adding a top tier KB & attached mic boom to it just becomes an unstable, transport, hassle.....not my cup of tea.
http://www.roland.com/products/en/V-Stand/index.html

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-16-2008).]

No down angle discernible, and quite stable with a second keyboard. Has a little side movement and not as stable as the Apex, however the Apex is hopeless at placing pedals.
btw Ultimate supply the v-stand to Roland, they are not imitating.

The playing angle is more important to me than the reading angle. I could never play a board that was not the correct, comfortable height and angle. As for reading ... I only glance at the display now and then anyway, so it's a second issue for me. If your eyes are looking down, the crowd can't see your smily face !

My "On Stage Stand" has height adjustments on all four legs. Could solve the screen viewing problem.

Fran in SC

What could fix the viewing problem is that Yamaha either installs a manual tilt screen...or fixed angle with brightness adjustment after the designers actually test it at all playing positions sitting & standing. Then they can stat working on another Usable NEW quality Vocalizer too.