I had a chance to try the Pa500 for a bit (and the s900). Korg styles sound basic and lacking. Intros and fill ins dont feel like they belong to the styles. Roland and Yamaha truly are the masters at well merged intros and endings and superior styles. PA500 sounds are impressive...if only the styles were better...

yawn.....

*looks at the inside of your mouth when u yawn* hmm u might need a filling son* lol

320 lousy programable styles?

I haven't heard any (Korg STILL has no demos)but I'm sure you meant that a few are not what you desire, and for that matter that's the case on most keyboards for all of us.

Anyway, you could be correct, so thanks for your opinion.


------------------
Larry
SynthZone Map

I haven't tried a Korg arranger yet, but I can't imagine that all styles would be "awful".

If you are not into style programming/editing then the Yamaha styles seem to be best out of the box.

If you like to modify the instrument to suit yourself, I see no reason why the Korg could not be made to work well for each individual's tastes and needs.

Ian

I seem to remember the G70 being panned as 'awful' by the poorly-named Rolandfan when it first came out, too. Now here he is praising it (or at least part of it). I guess time can make your first impressions change...

So let's not get too worked up about this 'first impression' either!

About the only things that ARE objective on an arranger are OS features (though how we use them is subjective). But sound, and styles both can only be described subjectively.

Probably this wouldn't tweak the Korgies' noses so bad if the title just said 'I THINK the PA500 styles are awful'...

I happen to agree with him, though, particularly the way that fills work (for me, a far more important issue than Intro's and Endings I rarely use). But it IS an opinion...

What i didnt like about the g70 was the poor sounds... The g70 styles were ok...not as good as yamaha...but the korg styles just dont sound complex enough for me including the intros. I have experienced the same thing about 2 years ago when i tried the pa1x. Korgs sounds have always sounded very pleasant out of the box. I sold my tyros 1 a year ago. Moved to johannesburg. Got married recently. Ive decided to get a keyboard again. So its a choice between psr s900, pa500 and possibly pa800.. I thought id try a new brand this time...never owned a korg...but im scared of being disappointed if i buy a korg..and the psr s900 sounds better than my ex tyros 1.. Decisions..decisions.

Once again, opinion, disguised as fact...

Yes, SOME of the sounds in the G70 disappoint. Some don't (piano, rhodes, drums, B3 amongst many). SOME sounds disappoint in just about everything I've ever played, including WSs and arrangers. And the very sounds that disappoint ME, often are the favorite sounds of someone else...

What can all this possibly mean? That my opinion isn't FACT?

Or yours...?

Didn't everybody pretty much agree that the g 70 was terrible until the first software update came out and fixed some problems,same with the pa800 you had to make sure you were testing the updated software. or am I thinking of a different board?
Maybe an update will cure the pa500

No... pretty much everyone that hated it still does, and those that liked it still do.

Same as most other things. I STILL hate tea, and love coffee after fifty years of trying!

The updates to the G70 never changed the SOUNDS (they are ROM only). They added some EQ and re-voiced the styles (first ones were a bit reverb-heavy), but in all fairness, it was never anything you couldn't do for yourself with some work (loathe as many are to make that effort!).

OS changes were another thing, but they made little difference to the sound. You could ALWAYS change that, now even more so, but far too many wanted it to sound perfect OOTB, and no two people's idea of perfect is the same! I always assume I'm going to have to re-voice and re-EQ anything I buy, so it never worried me...

It's strange, but there are some very enthusiastic recent buyers of the E60, which shares a LOT in common with the G70. Probably only the price of the G70 prevented them from being as enthusiastic when it first came out, and I agree it was overpriced (but I believe the T2 to be that in spades!). Perhaps if it had been in the mid $2k's and up, rather than mid $3k and up, peoples opinion of the sounds might have been different! It's funny how price changes our hearing...

But if you are too lazy to change a bunch of reverb levels, re-voice a few styles, re-work some OTSs, your choice of ANYTHING being perfect 'for you' gets pretty slim...

Funny, I thought the G70 styles sounded much better after they were reworked for the T2 and PSR-3000. Same goes for lots of other keyboard styles. Of course, the folks that took the time to rework the styles figgured out why they didn't sound great, then took the time and effort to rework them into something very usable.

Todays high-end keyboards, unfortunately, don't seem to sound very good out of the box, but most can be tuned to sound very good--it just takes some time and effort on the part of the owner. And, YOU HAVE TO READ THE OWNER'S MANUAL! There are lots of folks that never seem to be able to extract the Owner;s Manual from the zip-loc plastic bag. And, if they do, they spend at least 5 or 10 minutes reading it before placing it back in the bag, or just tossing it in the trash. The next step, of course, is to post questions on the various forums asking "how do I do...?", which can usually be found on the second or third page of the manual.

I think my biggest gripe is with individuals that really don't take the time to explore their keyboards, the vast majority of which are very good. It is absolutely amazing just how much is packed into the OS of today's keyboards that is never used at all. I still come across musicians that have owned a keyboard for 2 to 3 years that didn't know there was a way to tune the onboard EQs.

What I would really like to see more of on this forum is posts that say things such "Neat, new way of tuning my XXXXX keyboard and saving the information. Or, how I set up my mic settings to improve the vocal harmony." Sure would be nice to get back to these kind of positive posts guys and gals. Hmmmm! Also noticed there are darned few ladies posting on this forum as compared to some of the others. Rikki is the only one that I can think of at the time. Ever wonder why they don't frequent this particular forum?

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Hi Gary,
great comments.

One would have imagined that, that is what a forum is all about, sharing your experience & expertise & trying to help other members.

best wishes
Rikki

I completely agree with Gary. When I bought my Yamaha PSR3000 it was because of the support or info sharing from other PSR users I found on another forum. And to this day they contribute tons of useful info that others can make use of. I also agree that owners need to learn how to use the keyboard - my story is a perfect example. Last week I put my PA1X on ebay after one week of ownership. During the past week I discovered tons of things I can do with sounds, performances, etc and was very glad today when Ebay emailed me to tell me it had not sold. I too was expecting a lot from the keyboard "out of the box" so to speak. It would also be nice if other Korg players shared their music - not to compare with others or to showboat but to demonstrate what they are doing and what is possible. As a new PA owner I hoped to find a forum where exchange of ideas and info flowed freely - by the way - before anyone thinks I am ungrateful - I do thank those of you who have answered my "newbie" questions and appreciate the time you took to do so.
Hey - just a "newbies" thoughts.

Hammer

Gary as always great thoughts in your post. I agree with your point on G70 styles souding great when tweaked for the Tyros 2 and Psr 3000. When I realized that about half the songs I played at gigs last year on my T2 were using G70, Korg and Ketron reworked styles I started getting restless and started looking for a new board.

On the subject of Rikki, I'm happy she owns a PA800 in 2 months she's shared some valuable info with me on the Korg OS.

I'm guilty of not delving into an OS as deep as I should. After working with computer OS all day at my full time gig solving user problems that when I get to the keys evenings, I want to play and enjoy, possibly improve my playing a bit. I suppose it's a lame excuse Not to mention with the knowledge shared here by folks like Rikki and yourself it can make some of us a little lazy



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 02-21-2008).]

Take the time to tweak those styles on the instrument they CAME on, and you get as significant an improvement as porting them to another arranger altogether. Every style is just a launching pad for YOU to make it yours. Expecting it to come OOTB perfect for YOU is a dream. Every last one of us prefers a different sound, and a different amount of space to play over. But I feel that so many Yamaha users like the Roland styles because they have a whole different ATTITUDE towards how much the arranger plays, and how much room is left for you. It isn't necessarily the sounds, it's much more the actual performance.

Just as one player is simpler or busier than another, given exactly the same piece, so different arrangers have the same philosophy. It's not just a question of how MANY parts are playing, it's about how BUSY the part is...

I have always felt like Roland EXPECT you to play the important stuff. All the ACC parts are designed to support you, not take over and do it all for you. Yamaha's and Korg's, OTOH, you can hold down a LH chord and sing over the top, and it's complete! Finding room for your own contribution, given how up-front the ACC is, always strikes me as harder to do on these arrangers.

But port them over from Roland, and you have the best of both worlds. The sounds you like best, with a style 'philosophy' that gives you more room to stretch out and play. For me, personally, the Roland drums are what make me stay on the G70, rather than jump ship but take the styles with me (that and the lack of a 76 from Yamaha). But for those comfortable with the 'sound' they already have, these ports offer up a totally different way to play that the built-ins let you...

I have to disagree with the topic. I played a PA500 at GC today and it sounded very excellent. I had people standing around and they loved the board. It sounds as good as its big brother (800) and very nice looking. The keys felt fine for now.

I left scratching my head wondering why in the heck I traded my 800 for the lemon I'm stuck with now....

zuki

Zuki I thought you traded the SD5 for a Tyros 2 ?

Nobody is that foolish.

Zuki....have you ever owned a Ketron product in the past? The OS is a bit different but once you learn it its quite logical.

Let's put it this way. If I am blown away with styles and sounds, I will take time necessary to learn an OS, even if it doesn't do all Yamaha does. I can figure things out in time. But an hour on this and I was DONE. I revisited it the next day and no better. The 3rd day I was depressed.

Your reply is a bit puzzling but I respect it. I hope you find what your looking for down the road.

One would have thought that styles and sounds are the one thing you CAN audition on the web...

Did they not rock your world BEFORE you bought the SD? If they DID, why the change now, and if NOT, why buy in the first place?

I must say, I tend to agree with you, though. The sounds and the styles are the only thing you (and your audience) can HEAR. When you go 'I GOTTA have this!' when you first hear it, that's a pretty important sign you should buy one. But, of course, as soon as you do, you then run into the OS differences. But if it SOUNDS so good, you just HAVE to tolerate the OS shortcomings.

Trust me, I miss my Chord Sequencer every day. I have had to re-think the basic way I use an arranger. But the sounds and styles on my G70 are SO good in comparison to the G1000 that I HAD to make the change. I won't go back to one no matter how much I miss the CS.

But I still find myself puzzled that you bought the Ketron, if you don't like the sounds and styles. At least, that's what I think I infer from your post...

Diki,

I traded my PA800 for the Ketron after listening to web demos and testimonials from other users. I also read all the comments on Sonic that pretty much were very positive. Pour in a few other comments from past users that raved about the sounds and styles - well, I was expecting good things.

I unpacked it, set it up on my kitchen counter, turned it on and became extremely ill, very fast.

The styles are VERY glitchy - which would end it right there. The supposed unplugged - a joke at best - nothing I could ever use in style play - thin and bodiless. The Riff - good idea if you could play your own chords! The sounds? Plain awful. Thin guitars, weak acoustic piano (and on the split - even worse). Horns, weak. FX to the max to mask everything. The whole thing sounds very hollow - hard to explain, but sounds like one of those cheap Williams/Suzuki digital pianos.

As mentioned, I traded my Korg PA800 for it and lost, big time. The Korg sounds like the ultimate dream machine in comparison. I tried to get my deal back, but no way - I'm sure the other owner was happily washing his hands to rid this thing too.

To say my opinion is subjective is an insult (not that anyone has), but I can assure everyone that THIS particular keyboard has some serious issues.

zuki

Wow. Lucky we dont have ketron in south africa

Gosh, Zuki. After reading your post above, I actually am feeling a little guilty about kidding you in that other post. Believe me, I've been there; most recently with the Tyros 2. I bought it under the same circumstances as you bought the SD5. It's not that it's such a bad keyboard, it's not. But the fact that I don't even turn it on for months at a time, speaks volumes. By contrast, I play the Korg (PA1xPro) every day. It has mostly to do with styles and my concept of what they should sound like; truth is, I find the OS on the T2 to be much more user-friendly though they both have/don't have features that I'd want in live play. BTW, I've heard the SD5 demoed live and agree with you that (to my ears) it sounds like puppy poo.

Keep your spirits up. A year from now this whole experience will be a distant memory (unless, of course, it results in a divorce).

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 02-25-2008).]

Owning my first Korg arranger, the Pa2xpro, after owning Yamaha boards for the past 8 years I think qualifies me to compare the two.

One of things I like very much about the Korg styles is the fact they are not over-done like the Yamaha styles. Although the Yammy styles are very good and melodic, they do sound very cheezy after a while; especially playing live. Sometimes you will get an annoying string or guitar strum that constantly plays the same thing over and over to the point that you MUST shut down that track in the mixer.

The Korg, on the other hand, sounds more natural like a live band. And if the Korg style does get a little over the top, you have those wonderful sliders to mute or reduce the volume.

Overall, I think the Korg styles are VERY different from the Tyros 2 styles and are more geared towards live music.

------------------
Al Giordano http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 02-25-2008).]

True, True, .......& MORE TRUE!!
Good assessment!!

I need to step back and put things in prospective. The audience likes 1) my singing 2) my playing. I get tons of compliments on how great the 900 sounds, to the degree of having to demo the product on some nights after a performance. They could care less about the drums.

As Chas mentioned, it's what I WANT - hit it on the head. So, I have to closely examine the whole scenario and assess what got me this far. Guess what? - The lowly PSR3000 and now 900, with no harmonizer, no gimmicks, nothing else! And it's continuing to go extremely well.

I conclued that a harmonizer and the T2 will work best (for me). I can make the styles work, believe me. They are EVERYTHING but boring. The Yammy arrangements are fabulous, even if not as 'life-like'.

In the music finder, a few songs come to mind: Copacabana - wow / Dock of The Bay / Wonderful World. These songs sound terrific live and nothing I could duplicate on other boards.

Throw in 3rd party and lots of studio time to build the song list and it will will make for an appreciative audience - that's the goal in the first place.

zuki

Your first part made sense.....
But why do you need the T2 at all Zuki?
Ebay or Craigslist the Sd5.....buy Don M's S900 for a B/u if needed & a Tc helicon Harmony M in May....& with the change take your wife out for a nice romantic dinner!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-25-2008).]

Zuki,

If you are first and foremost a vocalist, you really owe it to yourself to use the TC Helicon vocalizer. It is so natural sounding and rock solid as a harmonizer. Your act will improve greatly with this either as a stand alone unit or built into the Korg products.

I spent the weekend just analyzing the voices in the Korg Pa2Xpro. I didn't compare them to the T2 on purpose. I just wanted to listen to each voice to see if I liked them or not. I would say that in each category (piano, organs, strings, etc) the Korg voices have at least one or two that are just outstanding. The organs are awesome. The Church organs blew me away!! Great choirs, strings, saxes, etc, etc.

More and more the T2 is fading away as a tool for Live performing. Just the songbook function alone in the Pa2 is worth the price!

I think it's a state of mind. I was in a comfort zone with the Yamaha. I'm glad I shook myself up and considered other boards. Especially in the "Pro" category that offer the Professional actual professional features. Does that make sense?

Al

Al....good luck

your on your way to musical happiness....when the T2 is gone you'll realize you made the right choice FOR YOU Cant wait to hear a few tunes.
I honestly sometimes look back & feel sellers remorse at getting rid if the PA800 also......great sounding KB with super features...if I can wait it out with the
TC Harmony M unit until a new wave arrives asap..I might be fine until then I have to put up with Fran urging me to go back to the super G70...I know hes right too


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-25-2008).]

Donny
Regardless of the musical roads you take, I want to thank you for the usual enthusiasm you showed for the PA800, because it is the best keyboard I have ever owned, and I have owned many.
Bernie

Bernie.....my fickleness sometimes gets the better of me & Im fortunate to be able to move around on gear a little more then most....but in no way is it a reflection on the gear it self in certain circumstances.....I try to give my honest take on it FOR MY Personal needs, which may or may not be for other people....& will always if I can help them with any difficulties if I'm able to do so. Moving the PA800 was the hardest one to decide yes or no.....& is in the back of my mind for a re-buy once I get a chance to get my thoughts together.....

Good Luck Bernie with your music!!

Email me some demos!

Hi Donny & Bernie,
ME TOO, I totally argree with Bernie, I was struggling to find a keyboard that would suit me as well as the Technics range had over the years, & the Korg PA800 has turned out perfect.
I think I was in the doldroms for 2 or 3 years after selly my KN7, tried Ketron, Yamaha & Software Arranger setup, all of which I still play around with, but the PA800 is perfect for me.
Hubby asked me the other day what I wanted for my upcoming birthday, first time ever the answer wasn't a "New Keyboard", not that I always get one. haa haa

Donny, I truly hope you find what you're looking for.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki,

Thanx....as the technology closes the gap in I would say the next 2 years I feel I am very close to saying "Thats It"...The PA800 has made that very apparent. We've come a long way....& I've been playing arrangers professionaly since day one.