The thing is, Rikki... Once the entire arranger is based about these loops, to a FAR greater extent than the SD-1 is, you are going to need more and more of them. Otherwise, you are stuck with what it comes with AND NO MORE. When a live loop guitar part sounds that good (and the demos bear this out), are you going to be happy with the remainder of your styles sounding inferior?

And at the price these come at, I see few changing to each new model, just to get a few more styles. But you are starting to realize what a PITA it is to create new content at the ROM standards. So the Audya better come chock a block with incredible styles, because it certainly doesn't look like Ketron are going to be adding much themselves, at least from prior experience.

They have already said the loops are going to come in from a HD, so the old ROM limitations don't apply, but ROM or HD, it won't matter a bit if what you get on purchase day is what you'll have on selling day...

Diki,
you have made some interesting and thoughtful remarks, but I really can't see your point, can't see where the problem is, or where the problem will be.

you like the possibility of those good sounding guitars?
you don't?
you like them and fear that they will be too few?
you don't like the thought that there might not be an easy way for you to add more?

I mean what is the problem if Audya has some 350 TOTL styles and additionally offers 50 even more TOTL sounding styles? Wouldn't it be better than having 400 TOTLS styles only?

At a guess I would say Ketron don't have an unlimited R+D budget, so unless there are some serious issues with the finished product, or possibly even the fact they cannot GET a finished product with reliable operation to owners, then this model (based on average financial considerations) should have hit the shelves already.
After all it didn't bother them too much to release the SD1 with all its bugs and then fix them in due course with OS updates (this is from some Ketron people I have spoken to).
So this leads me to think they cannot get a reliable product to market, either because of technology or because they went in with the wrong amount of processing power and technology in the first place.

Trident... I thought I had explained it adequately here and on the other Audya thread...

OF COURSE I like the demos of the styles. Who wouldn't?

Here's the problem. Firstly, just exactly how many different chord types and extensions will the Audya be able to do with the guitar loops? I don't want to hear a straight major when I ask for a maj9. I don't want to hear a 7th, when I play a 7#9. I've heard NO answer yet from Ketron about this.

Secondly, what percentage of the styles are going to have the live loop guitars (and other sounds)? If they sound THAT spectacular (which they appear to), I am NOT going to want some of my tunes to sound great, and some not so great.

And finally, what commitment is Ketron going to make to continue to produce these live loop styles once the machine is released..? Prior experience says NONE. Which won't matter a bit if your ENTIRE style needs are taken care of at the initial launch. Sadly, few arrangers ever do, and even if the initial offering is adequate, we will always hunger for diversity and choice, even on styles that ARE represented.

Third party and additional factory styles (and user styles) is what keeps our interest up in an arranger once the first bloom has worn off. Which, from experience (I work a LOT with loops in the studio) will be few and far between, if at all, from prior experience.

So, technically, and sonically, it's a breakthrough. But practically may be another thing altogether. Time will tell. I'm not counting it out prematurely, but I'm not willing to go along with the hysteria about the hype and demos. There are legitimate questions that have not been answered yet, and I await those answers as much as anyone else...

Audya to Showcase at the Pakefield Keyboard Festival in April, see uploaded program for details. (Separate Post)

Bill

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017256.html

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 03-23-2008).]

Ok, Diki, I get it now.
You are NOT dissatisfied yet, (how could you be since you haven't seen it) but you actually shout first, in hopes that you will be heard, and you won't be dissatisfied later. It is like cry wolf, except you have already seen wolves in the past.

It is like seeing someone in your front lawn in the middle of the night, trying to get in your house. Could be Apostle Paul, but most probably is a crackhead. From your reaction, you already have him on the sights of a loaded shotgun. Or he is already bleeding. Can't blame you.

The way I see things (I agree with you in principle, but try to show you iMHO you are a little premature) is not that you would have 50 spectacular styles and 200 not so great. It is that you will have 50 spectacular and 200 GREAT.

Time will tell.

...double post

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 03-23-2008).]

Wow Trident that was very succinct but very clear. Thanks for helping me see things differently. In your eyes the glass is half full and not half empty !! Of course you are right. Right now i have some styles on my PA1X that are great and some that are incredible and a few that are not to my taste but i just use the ones i like period. Thats going to be exactly the same principle i would use if i owned the Audya.

That's a little off the mark, Spalding, IMO.

On your Korg, BOTH the great and the not so great styles use the same sounds. The only difference is the programming. Or if a style uses less than the perfect sound, it is a simple matter to change it (or even some of the notes inside the style).

But the live loops won't allow this.

And, like I said, if they are THAT much better (and this product is taking a LONG time to get to market, so one imagines that most of the delay comes from trying to incorporate this new feature) then yes, the comparison will in all likelihood be FAR greater than you would like it to be. Basically, as much as the difference between what you have now, and a recording of a REAL band. And from what I've heard of all the major arrangers, there isn't ONE (including my G70!) that remotely convinces me I'm hearing the real thing.

These 'Live Loop' styles WILL.

So the difference WILL be that great. If not, it won't be the breakthrough that everyone is abuzz with...

Look, it sounds like some of you didn't bring an umbrella to the parade, and I'm sorry for raining on it, but I honestly think that you can be cautious and practical now, or disappointed later, when it DOES come out. Most of my talking points are based in fact, and experience from dealing with loop production in the studio. It is not always a bed of roses. There are limitations to the technology that some of you may be unaware of (or just want to pretend don't exist).

There are some points I haven't even brought up yet... Like, how do the loops deal with fractionally 'late' chord entry..? All of our MIDI based arrangers instantaneously jump the 'wrong' notes (from the previous chord) to the correct ones without retriggering or missing notes. You won't be able to do THAT with audio...

Don't get me wrong... I am as curious as anyone else about the Audya. It's just that, with a technology so new as this one (this is the first commercial product to do this to any degree), I am curious to find out how they deal with some of these problems, and also curious how we will react to some of the limitations inherent in it. Unfortunately, it seems that some of us don't want to hear about ANY limitations while we bask in the glow of the advertising hype. I, OTOH, prefer to think about possible roadblocks BEFORE I rush out and buy something. Not exactly the prevailing attitude at SZ, but one that has kept me from bouncing from one arranger to the next constantly.

But, time will tell (Messe '09?!). You want me to shut up and just go along with the hype? OK... This thing is AMAZING! It's the answer to all our prayers! It will turn me into a superstar overnight! Everything I play will sound better on the Audya! Men will envy me, supermodels will date me..!

Better...?

Public showings are in a few weeks, so it wont be long after before its available to buy, and you will probably be able to pre-order at the show.

Bill