.....including arranger players who choose not to use them in public performance and who think that they should not be used as a way to bypass traditional training (my main premise, BTW).

Why is it that any idea, expression, POV, or opinion, that is not in lock step with the popular view, is always dismissed with some version of the quote above. No matter how much you think someone "nailed it", the message is lost on me when it ends with such a dismissive statement, implying zero tolerance for an alternate point of view.

There are usually 'bits and pieces' of truth in nearly all of the posts. MY 'truth' (for me) is that arrangers should never be a substitute for learning to play. On reflection, I would modify that to say "YOUNG PEOPLE learning to play". In other words, those with aspirations to become professional musicians. I would never give my child an arranger keyboard. Does this mean that I don't like arranger keyboards? Of course not. I own two (and enjoy playing at least one of them). It just means that I would want them to truly learn their craft, and enjoy their musical journey. You can drive from Maine to California or you can take a non-stop jetliner. If you believe in the concept of 'Journey', you will know what I mean.

So that there is no misunderstanding of my original post, let me distill it down to one sentence. I DON'T THINK THAT ARRANGER KEYBOARDS (USED IN ARRANGER MODE) SHOULD BE USED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO LEARNING TO PLAY LEGITIMATELY.

How or if you choose to use one professionally, is strictly a personal decision which is completely valid for the person making that decision.

chas

What is the definition on Legitimate?
If you play, YOU PLAY simple as that...if you want to dream up some kind of purist attitude with an always underlying meaning to demean people that play music at any level & with ANY instrument in any way shape or form, I feel that is looking at it with blinders on. I play a Psr3000, I could well afford a TOTL arranger, but I'm comfortable with this for now. Is that wrong? many of my friends play arrangers professionally & for home use & many are excellent players who have told me that playing the arranger really gives them much enjoyment due the fact that they can do it all alone & still sound like a full band. I dont think many care out in the world about purism thoughts when they listen to or watch music performed. They just want to be entertained. This is an electronic world in all facets of life, Playing an instrument like the arranger either a inexpensive Costco Casio or a TOTL Roland G70 isn't any different for young or old to learn & enjoy. I wish everyone played an arranger KB the world would be a happier place. Not everyone can do it correctly....but it surly brings joy to whoever does indulge or listens. I find that the ones who displike arrangers or the OMB concept are so called musicians tht feel that they have been cast aside & have no work anymore due to OMB's, high tech electronic arrangers etc. vs the old days of predominately live bands.....but the times are changing & you got to move with the flow & try to fit in & find your niche to survive.



[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-15-2008).]

"So that there is no misunderstanding of my original post, let me distill it down to one sentence. I DON'T THINK THAT ARRANGER KEYBOARDS (USED IN ARRANGER MODE) SHOULD BE USED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO LEARNING TO PLAY LEGITIMATELY.

How or if you choose to use one professionally, is strictly a personal decision which is completely valid for the person making that decision."

Finally, a statement that makes sense.

That makes sense, Chas...but why be so rigid...why not use an arranger keyboard as part of a musical education?

Ian

chas ... no disagreement with any of your points (imagine THAT )

By all means, if one (especially young players) wants to be a 'musician', the long road must be traveled ... there are NO short cuts ...
But an arranger can be used as a learning tool, and even provide an incentive for the short attention span of some young people - the 'instant gratification' idea - ...

And if by "Legitimately" you mean all proper chord voicings, scales, etc., I certainly do not disagree with that ...

t.

Because, from my perspective, it teaches them more about technology than music. It also teaches them the great American concept of instant gratification; ie. "gee, I can sound great without the bother of learning all those pesky scales and stuff". Problem is, who's going to be around to produce all those 'canned' sequences that we get when we push that 'one-finger chord'. Any doctor will tell you, "forget diet pills and vibrating belly belts; if you want to lose weight, learn to eat healthy and get off you fat, lazy, ass and get some exercise". Same principle applies here.

John Dileo, you've got to stop being so defensive. Funny, I don't hear any of those 'great' players that you admire so much, arguing against sound musical training. I don't think that believing a child or youthful beginner should first be grounded in the basics (which usually means formal training), makes me a purist. Unless, by purist, you mean the belief that a keyboardist should know how to play a keyboard or that those who profess to be musicians, should be proficient in music. JMO.

chas

Well, Chas I don't agree with your perspective, but I do respect your opinion.

Using an arranger AND a workstation AND a sequencer should be an integral part of a musical education...we aren't living in the dark ages anymore.

Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds since we took piano lessons.

These tools should be used to enhance a musical education in my opinion, and I'm looking at it from the perspective of many years as an educator with Yamaha.

But, that's what makes this thread interesting...one POV would be boring.

Ian

Chas I just meant that there are some people who always look down upon anyone that doesnt play a single SOLO instrument void of any electronic accompaniment...
such is why arranger players are so called "frowned upon". I would think it takes much more learning to play a arranger correctly with all that's involved then just an organ, piano, guitar or a solo instrument of any kind. Lets face it we're all becoming dinosaurs & trying to exist in the music world....versus the DJ driven electronic musical world which is saturating and overcoming it all very rapidly. So we try everything to hang on the the "Old Days" & find a place for what ever we play in to days world.

Not everyone that buys a musical instrument (whatever the price and the model) is a musician, or would like to be one, or can become one, in the same context as not everyone that can buy a muscle car has had or will take lessons in sports driving or someone that purchases a drill is a carpenter or can make it as one.

Some of us, (me actually, hope there are others) simply want to have a good time. And for those, an arranger is a Godsend. We have something that can provide entertainment to US, and sometimes, if we play acceptably, to others also. Sometimes it can pay off a mortgage.

I don't really think I SHOULD endure formal education for 2-3 years before I can produce something that resembles a song I heard on the radio. Or endure endless years of formal (not to mention rigorous) training to become a classical pianist, only to discover that I can't play anything that is not classical, or that I can't play a chord without reading staff (happened to a friend). I can do both with my arranger, to some extent.

Of course, I don't go around and pose as a musician. But I am having a hell of a good time!

Chas is describing what things "should" be, and he is right. No musician is a musician until he has proper education.
But John DiLeo is closer to reality. Actually they are the two sides of the same coin.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 04-15-2008).]

But you would be wrong. And I say this with the utmost respect. Of course, I'm assuming that you mean playing each at a high level of proficiency. I think you will have a hard time finding support for that POV, even on THIS (arranger-oriented) board.

chas

chas