I couldn't agree more. Amen, Amen, Amen.


chas

Donny, it's really amaising how different we are. You're a generalist/entertainer who reads each audience and delivers what's appropriate. I'm a specialist. People who come to see me know what they're in for. If they don't like it, they need to leave.

Anyone who pulled out a chicken hat at the places I work would be hurt. Pulling an audience member out to join a circle of dancers would cause a riot, and I'd be the first one to participate (read "kick ass").

And, to tell hard line jazz people that what they listen to is boring would generate a lot of ridicule, at the very least.

Most of my people would think you're appealing to the lowest common denominator with mindless rubbish.

Most of your people would think that I'm an arrogant, snobbish misfit who plays junk.

You've been doing what you do for 40 plus years. I've been doing what I do for 52 years, with 9 weeks off.

With you and your croud, it's it's all about the entertainment/enjoyment. With mine, it's all about the music, music history/culture, etc.

Your potential audience is large. Mine is small. My great honor is associations with Ella Fitgerald, Ray Brown, Clark Terry and the like. You and Fran fondly mention Brenda Lee and Frankie Vallie (sp?) (yuck!).

You revel in the feedback you get from your work. I resent the fact that the big portion of my income comes from doing film scores, not live performance.

The good news is, we're both working in a field we love.

I would come see you as a friend, but would never take the time to see your kind of act for any other reason.

Let's make sure we visit when possible in the near future.

And let's ALL resolve to respect the choices others may make. In spite of the differences between us, and we differ on EVERYTHING about this business, I'm glad to know Donny.

And I'm glad we ALL have Synthzone to enjoy.


Russ

This is really a fun thread! I can recall having these conversations 50 years ago with fellow musicians who were always judgmental about other's playing or act. Unfortunately, I was not one of those blessed players with above average talent but I managed to play with a whole lot of them. It always struck me as strange that many of those really gifted players had a hard time making a living in the music profession while guy like me did rather well.

So it goes - do we create music master pieces or do we "entertain"? Nowadays the public just doesn't seem to give a you know what - they just want to be entertained when they attend an event. Truth is, most wouldn't know the difference between a really gifted player and all the rest of us.

Hammer

Well said Russ..........thats the bottom line.

Stay well

Just sounds like more insecurity to me...

I don't know where the trepidation comes from. What was the last decent posted song that got any flack? Who, exactly, has been singled out and slammed here for posting a tune, lately?

You know, in all my time of coming here, the only thing I can remember ever getting lambasted is when someone that tries to come off as a real 'pro' and expert in all things posts examples that were radically different in ability than you would have gathered from their written word.

Since then, many members have posted, and not one of them gets anything other than a pat on the back, a 'well done', and occasionally, a little well meant advice about how to have a go at making it better next time...

Anyone scared of that? Didn't think so... So why the aversion to ILLUSTRATING what you are talking about..?

Look, lots of folk 'talking the talk'. No shortage of that here. But many of the points, for one thing, make little sense without an example. And quite a few have, let's just say, well developed senses of their own abilities. But without an example, just how much stock can you put in their advice and opinions...?

If someone advises you about equipment, playing techniques, arranger operation, etc., wouldn't you like to be able to hear for yourself whether they actually have this so-called knowledge right? I'll also add that just about every other arranger forum DOES have PLENTY of people that post music examples. This is NOT some universal trend. Just here, for some reason...

If other forum's members can summon up the testicular fortitude to display their abilities, warts and all, why are we so testosteronely challenged here?

Maybe it's just that a whole lot of strutting might have to be dialed back (another of our differences with other forums) if you actually had to illustrate it... A ten year old kid could come here and offer seemingly 'expert' advice and we would be none the wiser. And a sixty year old One Finger chord player that just bought his first PSR could do the same. Without some way of finding out whether they can back up what they say, it kind of makes ALL the posts here an exercise in futility.

Unless you actually AGREE with the poster, that is... It basically makes this a WRITER'S forum, not a musicians. Because music is how musicians communicate... They PLAY music, not write about it (that's a critic's job!).

BTW, I know the dig wasn't personal, but for the record, my postings (mostly at Roland-arranger) have ranged from entirely arranger play, live no edits, to original music that the arranger has participated in the orchestrations, to arranger live play that only uses the drums, to SMF's that have all but the B&D muted, to more full arrangements. These are just SOME of the ways you can use an arranger, and I wanted to illustrate them. The singing? Well, I hope most can get past that! On a singer's forum, you'd hope they could get past the PLAYING...!

But there's a LOT of opinion and advice offered here at SZ. In fact, other than to just kibbutz, I come here to LEARN, and trying to do that involves a certain degree of having to find out whether the advice offered is coming from someone I can respect, at least musically. Without playing examples, who do you listen to? The one who crows the most, or the one who's posted examples illustrate they ARE talking from experience?

And, in the meantime, of course, PLENTY of members have posted music here with nary a bad word or destructive comment... So WHY are we using this as an excuse?

Why SHOULD SZ be the ONLY arranger forum where (at least SOME of) it's members are AFRAID to post?

Whenever these discussions come up, hardly anyone ever mentions what defines 'success' for them. The attitude of most of the 'entertainers' is that whatever makes them the most money (they may call it 'pleasing the crowd' or 'keeping them on the dancefloor' or 'number of bookings') is what is important. For them, music is not the primary thing (and that's ok). For others, music is the ONLY thing, the source of their satisfaction, their primary goal. That's ok, too, because they are willing to make some financial concessions (but not musical concessions). Each views the other with suspicion, distrust, and sometimes even anger.

The musician assumes (sometimes falsely) that the 'entertainer' is incapable of playing good music. The 'entertainer' thinks the musician is a snob loser, and can't understand why anyone would deliberately minimalize their employment opportunities in order to play that 'weird' music that nobody likes anyway.

Until we recognize these different attitudes and approaches to the business, we will continue to have these debates with no possibility of a resolution. Still, I'd pay to see Russ do 'Round Midnight' in a chicken hat (I think).

chas

Diki, I understand where you're coming from. For me,however,I think recording anything on an arranger is a waste of time.

I just got the Zoom Chas uses and will record something live this week-end, but he, you and possibly Boo and Bebop will be the only ones who will even be remotely interested. I think posting it on an arranger form would be impolite. There will be no arranger used, and the material will be about as hardline jazz as it gets (piano, electric violin, upright and drums).

It's fine for others to post music created on an arranger here. My use of an arranger, however, is for ONLY those jobs where I have no alternative but to use one.

Always enjoy hearing what others do, however.
And, I appreciate the feedback from you, Chas and others on the soundscore rough Don posted for me a few months back. I don't mind posting the material I have the right to share; it's just not appropriate for this forum. And, with liscensing agreements, there's not that much I can post anyway.

Live stuff will be as far removed from arranger music as it gets.Be glad to send it to you and Chas directly, though, if you're interested. Promise, I wouldn't "chicken" out!


Russ

Quite the merry-go-round we got going here.

Personally, I think posting ANYTHING is still a choice, and a person's reasons for not posting should be accepted...whatever reason or reasons they may be, they are legitimate to that person.

Inferring they are "insecure" or "afraid" is so childish...reminds me of the "I dare you" tactics in a schoolyard.

I say if someone does not want to post, be polite and leave them be.

Ian

Diki (and others),

“Testicular fortitude?“ ….Diki, that was good!

I really have to thank you (Diki and others) for your series of postings here. This is the first time I’ve been able to get a handle on the dynamics that go on in this room. Good for you telling it like it is:

“Lot's of people 'talk the talk', but let's face it. This IS a musician's forum. What good is the 'talk' without the 'walk.”

Now I’m starting to understand why there is NO musical exchange of ideas…it all comes down to human nature. Kind of like the Internet dating sites. You can be anyone you want to be as long as you don’t show yourself!

Still I’ll continue reading because there IS the equipment reports which as you said are enlightening if you use a certain amount of discernment. I’m still trying to digest how you can play to an audience 500 strong using a sub designed for your living room hi-fi set or your computer.

Other side of the coin. EVERYONE brings SOMETHING to the table. A few months back I heard a demo of someone doing a really awful version of Tico Tico. I could have learned a foreign language in the time it took him to complete the song! I was about to put it in the paper shredder when I heard him do an octave shift in the middle of a phrase. That was catchy…I adopted that idea and afterwards made it a point to listen to just about anything because you always pick up something if you’re astute (I even learned from Donny, though it pains me to admit THAT too!).

Next thought: Showering praise on everyone who posts a song! Isn’t this kind of living in the Twilight Zone? If everyone tells everyone else how wonderful they are, then there is no more benchmark to compare them with. Now look what’s happening in our schools. Students are falling so far behind that the only eventual solution was to “shower praise on everyone” and tell then how wonderful they are! Does that make the kid any smarter? It only gives him delirium about his capabilities!

When I was a child, my father came down on me so hard about “not putting on a sterling performance in EVERYTHING I do” that I told myself one day that “no one will ever say that to me again” and I proceeded to learn my music and everything else inside and out. I have to thank him for never patting me on the head and “showering” me with “undeserved praise.” I experienced phenomenal growth after that.

Finally, a few weeks back someone posted a link to a demo. Chas critiqued the tune and tried to offer constructive criticism. I remember thinking someone finally had the nerve to buck the “great job, Joe” routine and explore new territory by suggesting the performance could use some “touching up.” I personally thought Chas offered good, honest advice but, if I remember correctly, he caught H___ for that! And no one backed him up for using his own style of “testicular fortitude!”

Speaking for myself, I always tell people something like “I didn’t play this song to show you how GOOD I am, I played it so you can bring up some suggestions you might have to make it even better! I’ve always found humility to be an unassailable ally! If I had the proper recording equip, I’d certainly post a song…NOT to show my skills but to hear ideas from other musicians on how THEY would play it (or are MY now living in the Twilight Zone?).

John DiLeo’s idea is a good one. Set up a “music room” for the exchange of ideas. Unfortunately, it would probably go bankrupt within a week. I‘m going back to equipment watching!

Lucky

Si, in effect, you are saying that those of us who do not want to post...Chas and myself, for example, are insecure.

Pretty big assumption.

Actually, I did post a few tunes quite sometime ago.

Ian