...

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 05-20-2008).]

I believe the correct number of sliders is 9....that would correspond to drawbars on a Hammond.

Thanks for the link, Tommy.

If this is legit, it's a lot like we expected.

Ian

That looks absolutely awesome! Wow.

How do those sliders work when you choose a new organ voice that has a different setting? Do the sliders move by themselves?

Beakybird

Hi Tommy,

Thanks for posting the pic. Glad Yamaha decided to eliminate T2's painfully sharp as a lethal weapon jagged angles on T3. Other than that, T3 doesn't cosmetically look much different than T2.

The one new physical T3 feature I noticed and appreciate right off are its "physical sliders" which will make for much more convenient live real time performance control of style/panel part volume balances, etc. I'm most anxious to learn what the 'new' Concert Piano sounds like.

It's certainly fun on this forum to speculate and get excited about new keyboard offerings, but in the meantime, I remain quite content with Tyros2 as it continues to deliver the goods for me for me professionally as a keyboard-vocal entertainer.

One important requirement (at least for me me because I've spend months customizing my Tyros2 repetoire setup) is that Tyros3 support direct compatibility of Tyros2 'styles (.sty)', 'registrations'(.reg), and custom voices (TVN).

Scott

Does anyone know how Super Articulation2 differs from the original SA? It's not just more realistic humanoid grunting noises from the saxes, trumpets etc, is it?

Yamaha don't seem very confident with it if they're only offering 5x SA2 voices.

John

Looks Great!
Sliders---YES!
Sure hope those sliders work ( at least as a menu option) in PICKUP MODE not just JUMP MODE!

Or else big trouble!

Personally I think Yamaha is smart enough to take care of that???

I was hoping for a larger screen? Maybe it is bigger... can't tell by the photo.

Lee



[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 05-17-2008).]

It looks like that one that was photoshoped... Anyway its cool and got super features!
Im waiting for demos.

It just looks like a minor upgrade, and they forgot to glue on those 15 extra keys that a professionall music workstation really needs...

Also it still does not have any knobs..

It will sound good, as the T2 allready sounded good, but where is the next generation in arranger design...

Where is the integrated Vst host?
Where is the double MP3/wav/midi player?
Where are is the next generation accompaniment like Ketron and Q-ranger are showing us..
Where is the integrated arpegiator?


I just don't see any reason to upgrade either a t1 or t2 to this T3, hell i think the PSR 9000 pro is still the best Yamaha keyboard till date...

But then i'd love to get this as a gift...and it looks sweet, so maybe when it sounds better then the new Motif synths thne it will be worth its dollars..

Right on!!

No improvement to the Music Finder?

Graham

The LCD looks exactly like the LCD screen that's on the T1/T2 but it may be just a hair bigger. Maybe the screen resolution is a little bit higher perhaps?? The description "Great Graphic-Colour-Display" suggests a higher screen resolution but maybe not.

I agree with others that the T3 is just a modest upgrade at best. Five more SAV than the T2 and a total of 5 SAV2 is a little paltry on Yamaha's part in my opinion. Same amount of polyphony as the previous models too. USB 2.0 is a nice addition but we saw that one coming. Now the biggest selling point could be the T3's brand new Tone-Generation system. I'm not quite sure what they mean by that since they are not saying AWM2, etc. or any other specific terminology. We'll have to wait for the demos I suppose. Also, notice that it says "new drumkits" NOT "new 'improved' drumkits". But maybe they are implying "improved" when they say new. Again, we will have to wait for the demos. One other thing I wanted to mention is the new Live! Grand Piano voice. My guess is it will the the same one that's on the Motif XS i.e. the "Full Concert Grand" sample. Of course I could be wrong about that though.

There are a few nice additions e.g. the nine sliders, USB 2.0, new tone generator - whatever that means right? Then there is the new DSP-Blocks for the Styles which should prove interesting too. But the real downer is no 76 key version.

Comestic but not revolutionary, though the T3 should thrill Yammie Fanboys and certain other arranger keyboardists who crave 61 keys. >> Another little face-lift for the original Tyros that started it all; interesting but not really any thing out of the ordinary in my opinion.. But of course I haven't heard it yet so I could easily change my mind about it if the sounds are extraordinarily better than what's already on the T1 and T2.

Okay carrot lovers! Yamaha just dangled a carrot in front of you. I wonder how many will succumb to the temptation (GAS i.e. Gear Aquisition Syndrome) and upgrade their T1 or T2 to the new T3? >> Not me that's for sure. But you all knew that right?

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-17-2008).]

Thats not good if they left out saving transpose to MFD. Start selling your T2's now before the price drop...



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-17-2008).]

The problem for both yamaha and Korg are that they really pushed the envelope with the T2 and the PA1X and it is going to be real hard to come up with something that sonically is going to blow anyone away after these ground breaking instruments. Super articulation was incredible when it first came out and it set this forum and many others alight , it also did the same to the synth forums (not pure arranger). I dont know what yamaha can do in such a short space of time between keyboards (T2-T3) to do anything incredible that we have not heard already in their pro synth range. In my view the T2 Was a very serious improvement over the T1. Right now i suspect that most peoples expectations for the new T3 are over inflated because of the huge improvement the T2 was over the T1. Be prepared to adjust your expectations. Certainly dont start ditching your T2 until you have actually demoed the T3 !!!!

By the way i felt the same way about the Pa1X - the Pa2x. I did not go on to buy the PA2X as it was an incremental improvement and to my mind not worth buying another keyboard. The PA2X also has a new sound engine, (that sounds astonishingly like the old sound engine). There are differences in some sounds like the organs and the pianos but they are so minor as to be negligable

Dear spalding...

Just compare the sound of T2 or Pa2X to any hardware keyboard including the Korg OASYS, and they still fall short by any software based pro synth including Wersi and mediastation as they are essentially soft synths in a hardware cabinet.

Its not the sound that is disspointing people tough, thats more then sufficient for anyone's needs...

Its the missing pro feautures ... T3 is just more of the same....

Neither of these are NEXT generation arrangers. Firstly, one of them isn't even released yet, but let's not go into that, right now... I believe both of these to be bleeding edge THIS generation arrangers. Let's face it... unless they turn magically into huge commercial successes, both of these will merely be footnotes in arranger history.

The Audya, I still see with substantial problems to solve before it matches the hype. Live audio loops will almost certainly mean a much smaller choice of chord/inversion/root types, which we all enjoy at the moment. It will sound GREAT doing the things it can do, and it won't be able to do anything else. Forget editing styles, forget creating styles, forget the choice of ANY chord you can think of...

The MS, OTOH, has been out for quite a while. Maybe it's complicated architecture is what's holding it back, maybe the style library, maybe just it's obscurity, but one thing is for sure... A LOT more people got to get on this one's bandwagon before it's any harbinger of the NEXT generation.

Many a keyboard of the past has shown us that technical innovation and forward looking concepts have not necessarily guaranteed either success, OR that the market would head in their direction. The market tends to take the path of least resistance, and both of these products make the user make some quite considerable change to the way they actually make music.

Probably not what we are actually looking for.

Another point of view
http://www.jazzhooves.com/index.html

Bill

Now we're getting someplace!!

It didn't stop the Tyros2 from selling in droves.

It's a "home keyboard", remember?

Sure the T3 won't be THAT much different...Yamaha has a winning formula with the Tyros line, and will probably "enhance" and do a logical step-up rather than "revolutionize" and alienate their target market which is the amateur/home user.

Ian

Ian.......you are correct.....
for me, all I need are a few navigational, MFD, increased Flash Ram & Voc Harmony Improvement fixes for me to be happy........sounds & styles are more then enough to satisfy & keep me as a customer.
Otherwise down the road my Eyes are WIDE OPEN for my needs.

As cool as the Tyros3 may be, I'll think I'll be waiting for the next S-series for my own personal use.

A Tyros is too much money for my needs...the S900 fulfills all I want from an arranger for now...but, I'm always interested in new sounds and styles which will surely gravitate down from the Tyros3.

I hope to get a T3 on my sample account and I'm pretty sure it will be very nice and very tempting, but my present satisfaction with the S900 will stave off any gear lust...maybe.

Ian

Its a "HOME" keyboard. Yamaha wants to sell Motifs. There is no other Keyboard maker with such a small gap between the home and professional user. I suspect partly becasue Yamaha is the only keyboard make who actually makes real Pianos. This narrowa the gap between the week end gigger and the Home enthusiast.

Yamaha wants to keep their Motif line as the "Professional" players keyboard and the Arrangers for home use. IN that regard they keep them simple (unlike the Korg which few home enthusiasts are even aware of)

I have never had a customer who asked me about the differences between the PA800 and the s900. Most are not even aware of the other arrangers. Yamaha has far more exposure to the home keyboard buyer than Roland and especially Korg.

That said Yamaha will not release a 76 key version of the Tyros. They do not need to. The Home user is not asking for it. The professional user is buying the same engined Motif. (albeit without the arranger) and using Band in the Box for "Arranger funtions"

Thats why even though we are Yamaha dealers I bought the Korg over paying practically cost for the Tyros.

Now if I can find a cheap used S900 for those times when a 61 note board will suffice I will be in Arranger heaven.........

This time it's real .... FOR REAL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ4ZaAVexb0

(my dream is to be the guy in the center !)
enjoy! I'm thinking of recording this to my laptop and playing this song with the "real" boys as MY backup ! What a trip!

I totally disagree..

Korg keyboards are much closer to the Korg synths then Tyros to the Motifs...

Next to that Yamaha wants to sell Tyros, because the profit on a Tyros is much bigger then the profit on a Motif...

KingFrog.... YES, absolutely right on the money!.... Like I've said before... Yamaha PRO division will not hear of any more competition with the Tyros etc... They already have seem some issues.... Because several Motif guys have complained that the Tyros SA voices sound better than their PRO boards! I personally believe there is some boundrys set... Never to be crossed by an arranger.

So if the Tyros 2(3) is the function and sound ya like, but you want more real estate...just add a inexpensive MIDI keyboad under it and ENJOY! The CME 61 or 76 has almost the same feel and has aftertouch also.

That way you have plenty of real estate for left and right. And it looks and works super!

61 is OK for me as long as I have my lower keybed too. Without it I would be wanting a 76.

Lee

Well, if we lived in some parallel universe, where Yamaha were the ONLY arranger maker, I'm sure some of this might make a lick of sense. But we don't

Neither Korg, nor Roland seem to have ANY problem whatsoever with arrangers with 76 keys competing against their WS's. Maybe because they assume that a sale for Roland or Korg is a sale for Roland or Korg, no matter WHAT type of keyboard it is...

And the Korg is the ONLY arranger that it's basic feature set (editing, sampling, voice creation, etc.) is almost identical to it's WS line (at least the older Tritons). Neither Yamaha, nor Roland have ANYTHING from their WS line in the OS. Some samples, and the underlying main synth chip (but with ALL the WS features disabled) is all that they have in common. The rest is entirely arranger based.

And that old chestnut of the WS boys complaining that the T2's SA voices sound better... Well, that's the EXACT proof that the 'divisional rivalry' theory is bunkum. If there WERE any divisional rivalry, the MotifXS line would have NEVER gotten the SA technology in the first place. After all, the arranger division invented it and implemented it first!

Might as well blame the Freemasons! Those damn Rosicrucians are always messing things up for the 'pro' arranger player

THATS why I chose the Korg over the Yamaha.

I believe Yamaha wants to keep the gap between the Motif and Tyros wide unlike Korg. Because they seemingly have different divisions for their home and "professional" keyboards. Tyros is solidly in their HOME division. That's where they want it. The $7000 Clavinova is an S900 all dressed up minus the four real time pads

I am expecting a lot from Roland, When they want to steal T3 out of a lot of potentiall customers, they will announce a new key that has a lot of feautures from their high end Phantom G workstations/AT 900 organs/GT synth before Oktober..

Yamaha didn't invent SA voices it was done in software vst samplers before the T2 was released.. they only where the first one to implement it in a hardware environment..

One point that is assumed but not proved is that a 76 Tyros would automatically mean that it would be a “pro” keyboard.
If a pro has a Tyros it would be because of the sounds and features not the 76 keys (as we can see by the ones who use it on this forum). The point about a 76 key Tyros taking away sales from the pro division of Yamaha is not supported. If a “pro”/WS user wanted a Tyros, he/she would have gotten it already because of the sounds whether it is 61 or 76 keys.

Another wrong assumption is that if the Tyros were 76 keys “home” users would not buy it. Why?? With all the discussion, no-one has presented a reason why a home user who has a 61 key Tyros would not buy a 76 key.
Quite the opposite has been demonstrated. Just look at the physical difference between the T1 and T2.
As long as it is not heavier and much longer, as long as it is not much more expensive and as long as it has the superior sounds, styles and OS, a 76 key Tyros would not bother those who have a 61 key Tyros already. After all, a 76 key Tyros would not have anything that would drastically change the Tyros and would not affect the Tyros in a negative way. The only change is that it would have 15 more keys which if they do not want it they can choose to ignore. The same way that the T3 will have a MP3 player they can choose to ignore it.

I wonder who is the intended market for the T3? Surely not T2 users. The T3 seems like a software upgrade to the T2; something like what Korg, Roland or Ketron would have done.
The only noticeable physical difference is the USB 2.0 and sliders. I thought T2 had volume sliders. I remember when asking that question before, persons were trying to convince me that it did.

Divisional rivalry?

Most large companys have it... I worked at IBM for 30 years, and they had lots of it between divisions. At a detailed engineering/design level we shared about everything... BUT not at a product spec/marketing level.

A lot of times CORE technology is shared amoung divisions. Implementation of that technolgy is up to each division, hense the Expanded Articulation (Motif) is not as good as the Super Articulaion.

76 keys does not in itself mean to me PRO vs 61, but Yamaha may? see it differently.

Today it is much harder to differentiate between WS and arranger, maybe that is one area they thought they could set a line for the home division to not cross. Only they know but to me it makes some sense.

I bet Ian knows, but has to be careful as to what he shares.....As it should be.

I is very exciting as to what we may see in the near future! All the technologies are rapidly advancing, just have to wait to see how it might be implemented for us in arrangers.

Lee

Considering that the T2 has 42 S.A. voices - which are variations of roughly 7 or 8 instruments (sax, trumpet, brass, strings, and some guitars), I think that means that the T3 has only 1 additional S.A. voice (probably with 5 variations...)

That's sad...

is it just me...? the picture is suddenly a T2...

yep, it is Ty2.
The text is all about Ty2 also, no mention of Ty3.
Either they have pulled anything on Ty3 because Yam objected, or (possibly more likely) the site had been hijacked by a Ty3 "joker" (as a previous site had been) and it's now getting back to normal.
John

...

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 05-20-2008).]

Yamaha was probably getting ready to take them to court and because of the lawsuit threat they gave in and took it down.

Something tells me the pic of the T3 on that site might have been a doctored T2, or perhaps even more likely a doctored T1 pic. There were some VIP's that saw the prototype T3 at Musikmesse from what I understand, so these preliminary pics we're seeing are perhaps just photoshop renditions of what the T3 might look like based on information that may have leaked out from the T3 presentation at Musikmesse. Also, the specifications info may have been gathered the same way i.e. through leaked information which could theoretically, not be totally accurate, as well as the pic of course too.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-19-2008).]

Remember when Scott Yee posted the pic of the T2 and Yamaha threatened him with a lawsuit if he didn't pull it down?

Looks like a T2 to me as well...and Tommy's posts are gone.

Strange.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-20-2008).]

Hi Ian,
That is a Ty2 of course- now. If you didn't see what it looked like a few days ago see here:
http://www.jazzhooves.com/index.html

Same "Ty3" pic. that appeared here originally, (although a different site)
and which has miraculously metamorphosed into Ty2. Some sort of Divine Intervention perhaps


John

Thanks John...regarding "Divine Intervention"...that could have been when my mother-in-law fell down the basement stairs.

Almost made me believe.

Ian

LOL! The post is gone. Hmmm, who got a lawyers letter?

Arguing about something that isn't even out yet?......."BRILLIANT"

Who's arguing? Were just having a little fun at Yamaha's expense.. Okay, here is my theory as to why the pictures got taken down so quickly. Two words: Steve Deming.

Steve browses around the SZ on a fairly regular basis I would assume, although you could never tell that by his once in a blue moon chime in's where he will actually post and say something. Hi Steve. He saw the thread and then saw the post of the supposed T3 link and immediately got on the horn to his superiors at Yamaha U.S. who then got on the horn to Yamaha Japan. Actually it may not have even gotten as far as Yamaha Japan where Yamaha U.S. simply took care of it themselves. With the threat of a lawsuit and with Yamaha's arsenal of high priced Attorneys the Eastern European site quickly buckled and swiftly took the page down. End of story. Yamaha won the battle and they surrendered.

PS: It may have actually been a 'real' pic of a 'real' T3 but since there has been NO official announcement of the T3 by Yamaha as of yet, Yamaha is just simply trying to cover their own backs and prevent "unauthorized" info of the T3 from getting out before Yamaha's official announcement which is forthcoming, and hopefully very soon I might add.

Best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-20-2008).]

Apparently Yamaha does not see it that way. They won't be releasing a 76 key version of the Tyros anytime soon.

They are selling 61 keys for the same price as others ar selling 76 key arrangers and far more than other's 61 key fare. They sell everyone of them. I would think a 76 key Tyros would cost far more that $3500 MAP putting the competitors arranger keyboards in play.

I sell the S900's with the P85 for $2200 they have a fully weighted graduated 88 key board
AND the systh/organ keys of the S900. Win Win.

The P85 sells for $600. Its a worthy add for the Tyros as well and very easy to travel with.

King frog I would say its time for a TYROS 3 MODULE now there's a win win......but any keybed controller you want 61/76/88 & get the benefits of T3 technology sounds & styles......problem solved.

I presently use the same setup...S900 and P85, the latter having a terrific 88 note weighted graded hammer action...a lovely little piano.

Weighs around 25 lbs, has MIDI, and even has built in speakers.

Ian

How is that a win win. The persons who want just one keyboard to carry on a gig and want the flexability of 76 keys would be at a lost with that set-up.

Yes Yes and YESSS!!! I would buy one tomorrow.
The T2 would make a GREAT module.

Donny - agreed! A T2/T3 or S900 module would be the ticket to accompany my 800....what a dream come true.

zuki

Zuki just keep talking about a Tyros Module & maybe one of these decades we'll all be surprised After all Ketron, GEM & Roland have taken a shot at it.

Posted on T2 PK forum

"Hi Folks
Have just heard from my dealer who saw Tyros3 yesterday.Sounds fantastic
New TFT screen Nine drawbars which are assignable.The registration buttons have now moved to the right.New sampled piano and organ voices.Lots of new styles plus some of our old favourites.A rounder appearance.More megga sounds for the accoump.Some different effect asigned to the Mod wheel.USB2.Sound quality is excellent.Cant Wait to get my hands on one "
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/

http://www.allegromusic.co.uk/KEYBOARDS/...s3_request.html

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-21-2008).]

Everybody will have the full skinny on the T3 after Summer NAMM starts, which opens Friday June 20th and runs through Sunday the 22nd. Yamaha will "officially" unveil the T3 at summer NAMM and demos will follow shortly thereafter. Massive excitement and buzz will reverberate throughout the Arranger music world and those who have a Tyros2 and many with Tyros1's will start selling them in droves or trading them in for this new beast from Yammie, which will blow every other arranger product on the market out of the water with the sheer magnitude of its sound realism. Wersi owners will weep in remorse for having bought their overpriced, overrated Wersi product. Korg owners will be left with wide open mouths gaping in astonishment at what Yamaha has acheived on their latest Flagship and then left to ponder how to dump their Pa800 without losing their shirt in the process. Ketron lovers will look on with angst and trepidation as Yamaha bursts on the scene with its new top of the line arranger, grabing the media spotlight, and a wonder to behold, as Ketron Italy fiddles slowly around with Audya in their hopes of attending yet another Musikmesse trade show in Frankfurt, Germany where the frauleins abound and the beer flows freely. Roland arranger users (most notably G-70 owners) will stand back in amazement at what Yamaha has accomplished in a keyboard with only 61 keys with its full complement of cutting edge features (minus the 15 additional keys of course ) and will then look at their G-70's in disdain for its comprehensive 'lack' of cutting edge features for an arranger in the 21st century. But their stubborn pride refuses to acknowledge Yamaha's superiority and the inferiority of their own product. Let me see.. did I miss anyone?

>> I'm trying to puff Yamaha up because eventually the T3 bubble may indeed burst if the T3 is under-whelming in its performance and in the sound department, and the hype proves to be what it is - just hype, with excitement about the T3 quickly fizzling out after the T3's lackadaisical initial release reveals the truth about Yammie's new flagship.

In conclusion: The T3 will either be a smash hit or a poor excuse for a $4,000 keyboard. We will find out which theory holds up in the court of public opinion in less than a month.

Best,
Mike

PS: If anybody thinks too seriously about what I said in regards to their arranger or the company that makes your arranger - needs to get out more; but even more importantly - you need to get a sense of humor.

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-21-2008).]

If i was a Yamaha dealer i'd tell everyone that the PSR 9000 is still better then all other Keyboard brands, and the 3 Tyros versions only made it better..

And then i'd tell them how good the new T3 actually is with a new sound engine based on AWM2 , everything got better and better, while still being compatible to the T2...

I'd never trust a dealer above my own hands and ears

I agree. Everyone and his brother can give an opinion on any given keyboard but the ultimate deciding factor and the final judge of any keyboards true worth is the person who plays it firsthand themselves and then he or she can make up their own minds whether a particular keyboard is the bees knees or not.

Although opinions from trusted and or "professional" sources is always welcome and will help to enhance a persons knowledge and overall understanding on the generalities of a keyboards features and sound quality. But a persons personal interaction with the keyboard i.e. to demo it firsthand, should be considered a must on everyone's shopping list before aquiring the product in my opinion. Some people do buy sight unseen and to each his own, but I'm just a hands on kind of guy I guess and I always prefer to "try" before I buy.

Best,
Mike

Interesting: the dealer request form details standard or deluxe speakers???????

Hmmmmm...? maybe they throw in a New BOSE PAS with the T3 ....sorry I meant Two PAS's for stereo

Buy in haste, repent at leisure.

Ian

assignable sliders already exist on the PA1X. Assignable affects to the joystick/Modulation wheel already exist on the PA1X. The Pa1x IS 5 YEARS OLD.

Everything changes and yet everything stays the same......

What are the advantages of Drawbars on an arranger which would make them must-have? You wouldn't want to have to fiddle around during a performance would you in preference to using much more precise and quick registration buttons??

I'm not an organ player (apart from playing simulated ones on Ty2) and I can see why it might be useful perhaps for quickly experimenting with mixtures when looking for new setups, but once saved to registrations is there really such a pressing need for them nowadays?

John

Well, you just answered your own question. "I am not an organ player"....

That's why you don't need them, any more than you need a breath controller (because you are not a horn player, I presume ), or a knee lever (because you are not a pedal steel player)....

But if you WERE an organ player...

How is two keyboards easier to travel with than ONE 76?

Not to mention that, because of the 'dumbing down' of MIDI implementations since the nineties, it is MUCH harder to integrate two different keyboards to control ONE arranger.

You see, the whole point of arranger registrations is the 'one button' call-up of everything you need for a tune. But because arrangers are now designed specifically to NOT work with external gear as easily as it used to be, you are faced with the problem of having to use TWO different sets of controls to integrate the two keyboards.

Let's take the simplest thing you are likely to want to do with an 88... Not only play the arrangers piano sound, but also to trigger the arranger's 'Piano Mode' chord recognition, so the accompaniment actually follows you. This is much harder to program than simply using a MIDI channel to play the voice. Then there is the question of chord 'hold' (so you can play passing chords without the machine going crazy) as well as sustain, sostenuto and soft pedal control.

Doable? Possibly, on your arranger, but hardly simple. Now add in the fact that you would probably like to have 'Piano Mode' enabled for the section you are playing piano on, but want to go back to a LH chords, RH solo sound for another section of the song (you don't want to HAVE to play the entire song on piano, do you? ) you add an altogether more complicated thing to program without a lot of button pushing.

Add to this that you are going to have to physically separate the two keyboards by quite a distance (so you have access to the 88's buttons), and you create a rig that is far more uncomfortable to play than if they were snuggled up close, á la organ style, and far more complicated to make changes to. For those of you that would prefer the inconvenience of hauling at least TWO keyboards around, with all the extra stands, wires, pedals MIDI cables, etc. so you can have the 'purist' approach of playing an 88 for what, two sounds (piano and Rhodes?), I would suggest you start making a LOT more noise to your favorite manufacturer about the dwindling MIDI implementation.

Presets (Even your own) are fixed and offer minimal flexibility.
Drawbars you alter to suit the mood, e.g. you will not always use the same settings even playing the same song.
It also involves the feel of the shape of the drawbars, which cannot be emulated by presets or touch screens.
In answer to your question
If you have never had them, then you will not miss them.
If you are used to them, then there is no other substitute
Hope this helps

Bill

As long as my left hand is tied up with bass or chord tasks, drawbars are wasted on my kbs. I love the "on the fly" setting changes, but as a solo artist - I can never afford that luxury!

Fortunately Diki I'm still sharp enough to know whether I've answered my own question, or not .... as in this case

But....reading between your lines you seem to be accepting there are few advantages on an arranger which would make them must have???

John

John, the thing is that registration buttons are great for gross sound changes, but one of the things that many real organ players do is 'shade' the sound in realtime, as you go along. It's not a case of just completely re-doing the registration, but a constant (or near constant!) very slight adjustments to the drawbars. One phrase may get a little lost, you pull out the 2' a click or so, push it back in after the phrase, you might take the 16' out a click or two for a quick line, and push it back in a bar or two later. All these minor tweaks are too numerous to be stored as preset registrations, they really ARE something you tend to tweak as you go along.

Got a guitarist one night with a scratchier sound than your usual? Shave a hair off you high end to not clash... Got a duller room than usual? Spice it up with a bit more top three d'bars... Band getting muddy? Push back the 16' a hair.

Registrations only get you so much control. The drawbar (or buttons, it really doesn't matter as long as you CAN adjust in realtime) is the final step in making something perfect (for right now). They are STILL on modern organ clones. If they were of so little use, seeing as how you can store as many presets as you like, they would have been dropped long ago (they add considerably to the cost of a clone).

For most REAL organists, the thought of a B3 without drawbars (or ANY way to adjust in realtime) is unpleasant In an arranger context, you have to decide for yourself whether these subtle tweaks are worth it or not. I use my arranger with live bands as well as duo and solo work. Especially in the band situation, the drawbars are a MUST. In an OMB situation, where you have total control around you, maybe not quite so much, but once you get used to shading your registrations, it's hard to stop!

"P85, the latter having a terrific 88 note weighted graded hammer action...a lovely little piano."

Ian, your P85 must be different then the units I have played..

OK Thanks Diki re drawbars
Thanks to the others who posted too. As happens sometimes the thread got lost for me until today when I ended up clicking on a link to it. Apologies for the late acknowledgements.

John

Not really Fran, but the difference may be that I actually play piano.

You however, may not appreciate the joys of a great weighted hammer action as on the P85...you don't own an instrument with the aforementioned type keybed do you?

Yamaha, and, to be fair, Roland as well, have really captured the expressiveness of a piano with their great hammer actions...but again, you'd have to be a born and bred pianist to really appreciate them fully.

Ian