But here is where I think it falls down, compared to a semi-weighted 76...

It is by far the better keyboard to play piano on, and Rhodes too. But after that, that's it. 88 wood is not the best action to play almost every other sound in the arranger on. So for straight ahead pianists with little desire to play any other sound, it's perfect. But for the jack-of-all-trades arranger user, it is too much of a compromise.

As is a 61, IMO, which severely restricts the real two handed piano player (and the inclusion of Piano Mode triggering on most arrangers seems to indicate that the manufacturer kind of expects it to be used this way, at least by SOME of it's users ) from any kind of normality. So what's the answer..? Of course... the 76 semi-weighted. Big enough to play most piano parts on, light enough action to play all the OTHER sounds on, heavy enough to not feel like you are playing on an organ.

The arranger is ALL about compromise. I feel like the baby bear; too small.., too big.., JUST right!

Diki,
Yes... for me for sure the 76 semi-weighted is best. A good compromise for piano and great for all other playing.

But if you play piano a good part of the time... these guys need the 88 notes (not me). They swear by the 88 and won't give it up.
Lee

Exactly...61 for arranger play, and 88 weighted graded hammer action for piano...playing solo piano on a 76 note semi weighted keyboard is like trying to wash your feet with your socks on.

Weighted hammer works for everything except organ sounds...too bad Yamaha couldn't make the P85 piano into an arranger...only 25 lbs even with the speakers...that would be deluxe!

Ian

Got to disagree on this one... Anything that needs a very quick, facile action to imitate well (accordion, flutes, rapid strings, some Minimoog lines, in fact, anything that actually IS triggered from a lightweight keyboard in real life!) is hampered by a wooden 88, at least as much as playing piano on anything other than wooden 88 is hampered.

I personally feel very little compromise on my technique playing piano on the G70 action (the shape and feel go a long way towards making you feel at home), but most things other than piano definitely take a hit from the stiffness of a real 88. Mind you, a LOT of the budget 88's are ANYTHING but realistic in their pianistic touch. They might make excellent compromises, too, but most of them won't make a true pianist feel at home any more than a semi-76...

The Kurzweil PC1SE would also make a great arranger keyboard!

If you were playing often enough on an 88 weighted keyboard your finger strength and technique would be improved to the point of being able to handle using these sounds.(except MAYBE organ, which requires a fast and shallow triggering action).

That's the problem with the 76 semi-weighted...it doesn't build finger strength and technique suffers.

Check out Jordan Rudess on the Kurzweil...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdlRcK3cJ4A&feature=related

Korg Oasys...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAp6iilofDc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m91c9PuTdZo&feature=related


This illustrates clearly that weighted hammer obviously doesn't hamper speed.

But a wimpy 76 semi-weighted definitely affects piano technique.

Why lose what took years to develop?

A lightweight 88 note weighted hammer arranger would be less of a compromise all around...but it would have to be truly light...under 30 lbs for sure.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-21-2008).]

Sorry, Ian, but in a perfect world, you are absolutely right

Trouble is, here in Arrangerland, most of us haven't spent our entire musical lives only playing piano. In fact, probably a large majority of us have played very little, if any, piano at all. Under that set of circumstances, once again the 88 wood falls to live up to it's potential for most arranger users.

Yes, the very best of us could probably get a decent performance out of an 88 after quite some considerable practice, but let's face it, again... most of us are not getting any younger The same factors that prevent many from being able to move anything heavier than a flyweight keyboard would prevent the comfortable use of an 88 for any length of time. Carpal tunnel syndrome is the bane of those that play a LOT of piano as they get older, along with rheumatoid arthritis and the like.

So, yes, in a perfect world, an 88 wooden arranger SHOULD be able to be used for all sounds but organ, in the REAL world (you know, the one where you prefer a mushy 61 for just about everything including piano ) it's weight, both in playing and moving, make it impractical for the majority of arranger users.

I have a real piano, and play it most every day. But there is no way in hell I would try to go out and do my schedule on an 88. I find no problem whatsoever controlling my G70's awesome grand piano sound from the 76 semi, and the ease with which I can not only play all the other sounds, including authentic organ smears and the like make it a no-brainer for those that a) play both full piano AND Hammond parts, and b) want to take only ONE keyboard to a gig.

Both the 88 wood and the 61 plastic are incapable of doing BOTH, and both is what I need, every day. No, I am not Jordan Rudess... Neither is anyone else on this forum, from what I've heard I sincerely doubt hardly ANY of us could play an arranger so facilely on a wooden 88. Go to your favorite source for the truth, Yamaha's sales figures, and look up how many 88 wood arrangers are sold, compared to 61 plastic...

Now, if they would only make a plastic 76....

Whatever works for you, my friend...I still want 88 keys.

I've played a lot of CVP instruments over the years, and it is awesome using a weighted 88 note keyboard...but they aren't making it in a portable(under 30 lbs) enough package.

If they could do a TOTL arranger in a platform like the P85 it would get my money right away...I have suggested this many times to Yamaha.

They did try a sort of portable CVP called the PF1000, and I played it, and it was nice, but way way too heavy (68 lbs) for a solo performer.

Carpel tunnel is mostly the result of poor technique...not the fault of the piano...more likely the player's bad habits.

Poor posture, and bad wrist position are the culprits.

But if 76 semi weighted does it for you, all the better...just doesn't do it for me....never will.

I'll wait.

Ian

And wait, and wait, and wait, and.....

In the meantime, I am happily playing piano parts on my G70, with an action that is FAR less of a compromise that the S900 you use every day (back gigging, yet?). I wish I had the time to be able to wait for this mythical lightweight 88 arranger (that mysteriously transforms into an organ keyboard at the touch of a button), but I have a job to do

And, truth be told, you already play some piano parts on that awful S900 action, as limited as it is. So please don't try to convince me you are holding out for the 88! If you played NO piano parts on the S900, I would know you are actually serious and purist about this topic, but once you play anything pianistic on the S900, you have already made a FAR greater compromise than using a 76 semi....

Which ARE, after all, available NOW

I'm not gigging till October, so I have lots of time...who knows what will be out by then...I have a P85 here for piano practise and the S900 for arranger stuff...life is good.

Piano is just another voice to me on the S900...and when played in arranger style, the action is just right...plus the instrument is light and portable (and still sounds awesome)...unlike the G70 which has lost many users due to it's weight and bulk.

If you are willing to lug that thing around, more power to you, my friend...just thinking of dragging that beast around makes me want to hug my S900.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-21-2008).]