Oh please..., there's no logic to someone's opinions possibly being biased on a product (whos maker) just also happens to pay that individual.

I'm well aware of the large group of supporters who DON'T GET paid, but to say one's position couldn't possibly be biased based on compenstation from said company in itself is just "illogical".

I remember a time on this forum when we brought up the topic of store owners reviews and opinions "possibly" being biased.., and I remember time when we talked about actual full time reps posting and their opinions being biased. So how illogical is it to think that someone who is a daily poster here who happens to be compensated by the company he's rejoicing about couldn't possibly be slightly biased in his opinions.... That's not illogical...., that in itself is common sense.

I think it's great Ian loves his Yamaha. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people are a one brand player and there's nothing wrong with that either, but you can't fault a person who throws caution based on a members opinion who is also known to be compensated by the company.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]

Oh yes there is...it's just something that you are unable to grasp.

My opinions are biased because the product meets my needs.

Again, Yamaha is not perfect, but it is the best, in my opinion...and, I would say that whether or not I worked for them...in fact, as I said earlier, that's why I do work for them.

It's good to stick with the winners, don't you agree?

Now, back to the S900...the day is still young, and I have some practicing to do.

Ian

I most certainly can grasp it Ian... I've worked in business long enough to grasp that concept. If you truely adore them as you say then that's great, but for pete's sake you can't snub someone for suggesting bias based on the reviewers position with the company itself.

It someone on this forum was going on every day about the Roland G-70 or Korg PA series, or the Wersi (who happened to be compensated by that company).., they too would be met with the same response from other members as you have. Now that's REALISTIC.

No, I guess I can't, Squeak...unless I have made them aware that my bias has nothing to do with any compensation.

I have stated that fact several times...if you don't believe me...that's okay...I still think you're a nice guy.

Ian

Ian...., I never said I didn't believe you. You're not biased..., that's fine and dandy, but from reading and participating in this forum for nearly 9 years now I've seen A LOT of biased opinions.., and many of the vets here can say that as well. If you're not biased than good for you. You're a di-hard Yammie fan, and there's nothing wrong with that man.., but you can't get upset when I or others who have been on this forum for a long time (at times) may take some reviewers opinions with a grain of salt when one has to consider the reviewers position with the company itself. It's not to say your opinion doesn't count or doesn't matter..., but you have be realistic.

If I worked for Roland and was constantly promoting their keyboards here, and often snubbing other makers and those who play those models.., is it illogical to think that my position might be slightly biased? Also..., I've read your posts on things you dislike about Yamaha, but it's obvious in those posts you have shown some reservation in how you addressed those personal issues, but that's not to fault you as you have to be careful about how you express your negative views about the product if you're being compensated by the company.

My problem which has been brought up many times on this forum is how some members constantly try to make this a PRO YAMAHA forum when it's the general arranger forum. I remember a time Ian..., (before you were even a member here) when if a member said anything negative about Yamaha boy did they get a verbal lashing for it. So it does bother me to see history repeating itself here when there are many members who don't own Yamaha. I've been quite vocal over the years about my discontent about some of the things with Yamaha keyboards, and geez have I gotten hate mail for that. There was a time that just because I also like Roland..., myself, Fran, and couple others were suddenly the trouble makers.... It's just nuts really.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]

First things first...

I believe there's a HUGE difference between a manufacturer's DEALER coming here to promote a product (or the manufacturer himself, as in Dom's case), who will personally gain from doing the said promotion, and someone who's position in the industry is tangential at best (no offense, Ian!) who will not profit from his words...

Ian is a part time clinician for Yamaha in an obscure part of Nova Scotia (no offense again!). This is hardly what you think Yamaha WOULD send here to shill for them, were they the slightest bit interested in subverting our opinions (for all the good it's done!). I'm sorry squeak, but you know that Ian and I often have very different views about things Yamaha, but the one thing I am utterly convinced about is that his views and opinions about Yamaha have absolutely nothing to do with his occasional employment by a branch of the company up in Canada

He is no more, and no less than simply another of the interminable 'fans' that populate this forum, one of those that rarely see past the plusses of their choice of arranger, don't like to discuss it's negatives, and prefer to dwell on the negatives of other arrangers to keep the topic away from any discussion of it's own negatives.

I, at least, am utterly convinced that were he to lose his employment with Yamaha, his opinion about them wouldn't change in the slightest. Let's face it, how many of us could say that? Be honest.

In the meantime, guys like zuki evangelize other brands just as rabidly without any connection to the company. Given a choice between looking at the facts and deciding that either Ian is, or is NOT a shill for Yamaha, why not look at the company he keeps, and simply give him the benefit of the doubt. Once again, I say, if he were the ONLY one acting this way, you might be in a position to say without much doubt that his employment was the main factor. But given that, to be honest, quite a large percentage of the membership has little objectivity about their choice of manufacturer, Occam's Razor decides to simply place him in with all the other zealots merely voicing their personal opinion.

Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? It's not like he's George or Frank, actually marketing any of Yamaha's products.

the point is Squeak that you have made a connection that is just not neccessarily true. If i work for Korg and i love their products it does not mean that my opinion on the product is necessarily influenced because i work for the company. Thats a jump too far in your reasoning. Thats the implication of what you and others are saying regarding Ian and his enthusiasm for the yamaha products. That in my opinion is really unfair. Especially when you understand the tongue in cheek comments that Ian continually makes and the way he deliberatley teases and winds up some of the poster who go right ahead and do the same back ! I know marriages that are built on that kind of relationship :-) . Anyway i just thought it needed to be said.

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. I've already stated that I know Ian has stated his opinions are not biased and so forth, but is it a sin to either ask or request clarification from the person knowing they're also paid by the product maker?

However, I still stand in my position that it's not at all uncommon for a person to throw caution when he/she reads reviews and the reviewer is on the product makers payroll.

Like I said..., it's great Ian is so thrilled with Yamaha..., however his so called "tongue and cheek" comments and the real intention behind those particular comments are still debatable IMO.

Damned Diki, you hit the nail on the head with that last post. Either you're startin' to mellow out, or maybe I am, but I agree with every point you just made. Hmmm! Maybe I'm playing it safe for when I drive through Florida next spring--don't want to get shot at while cruising down I-95.

I've never looked at Ian as a company man. Sure, he gets a few bucks for demoing the keyboards, but I'm quite confident that it's a labor of love and nothing more. I had offers like that down this way a year or two ago, but had to turn them down because of a hectic schedule, plus it didn't pay very much when you considered the amount of time involved. They didn't want me because I'm a great player, because I'm NOT! They wanted me because of my knowledge of the Yamaha OS and how to interface their keyboards with other pieces of equipment.

Yep Squeak--I'm a Yamaha guy too, but I've owned lots of other brands as well. They all have a vast array of great features, and they all have a number of weaknesses. For now, I'll stick with the Yamaha brand for several reasons, the least of which is that it is the most comfortable OS for what I'm doing.

Good luck,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

No, it's no sin, but once the person DOES clarify his position, you are somewhat in the position of calling him a liar (first a whore, now a liar where's the love? ) if you don't take him at his word. And, if you won't take a fellow member at his word, why ask for clarification in the first place?

If you've already made up your mind, why discuss it at all..?

I think you know me, at least from my posts. I don't take bull lying down After a testy start, Ian and I have grown to at least tolerate, and sometimes even appreciate each other in some ways. We've corresponded privately, he's heard some of my music, I've heard some of his (you know, the thing so many here are scared sh*tless about!) and from talking to him, I get the distinct impression he cares for his arranger regardless of whether he's employed by them or not.

Now, if he can persuade me (the eternal sceptic ), maybe you could give him the benefit of the doubt?

Personally, I don't care if anyone is employed by a company or not. A complete lack of objectivity is a pain whether influenced or NOT, IMO...