http://www.yamahapkowner.com/?page_id=523

Eric

Wow what a disappointing sound set. The thing that makes it even sadder is that I'm sure those sounds presented are the best that the Tyros 3 has to offer. Not what I'd call a groundbreaking step forward by any stretch. Perhaps when I audition the Tyros 3 in person it will impress me but all signs so far are pointing to NO!

Sounds like the same old Yamaha stuff to me - not that it's bad. You either like that sound or not

That was very Nice! I still think the T2 is an awesome board. Can i justify selling my T2 to buy this upcoming T3? I'm not sure. I do love some of those samples. I do understand that these programmers are much better players than I am. I'm looking forward to playing it.

------------------
God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

Well I listened in detail all the samples..

I have the same problem with Tyros 3 as the previous models...No real definition of sounds...they still sound like you are hearing the sounds from another room..

The breathy sax..is superb...most of the other best sounds are just okay to me..not bad at all[best selected)..but not great cutting through a mix sounds...

I noticed the comparison between the Tyros2 and Tyros 3..mp3's....that Yamaha decided to use compression..in an attempt to get the board to sound "in your face"...better yes, but still not as good as Korg , Ketron , and Roland...I even thought the quality of the Yamaha sounds suffered because of compression...

Tyros3 is a decent top of the line board..especially for the Yamaha fans....but still falls short for me..even in it's so called strenght.."Sounds"...

and we didn't even mention key size and range..

I have to agree with both Lee and Zuki...

I loved it WOW!!

Until I hear something else to compare it too from another company........
which hopefully be soon....

does anyone know if there is any NEW navigational changes between T2 and T3......& is the Vocalizer improved?
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/?page_id=585

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-09-2008).]

I like the sounds I heard, but I still think Yamaha is selling us short here... For an upgrade from T2 to T3, we should be getting more than a couple of sounds.

I'll wait to hear it personally before I decide (unlike the T1 and T2 which I happily bought before trying.) But even if I end up getting it I will keep the Korg Pa2x and perhaps even use both on stage. Thankfully I'm in the position to justify having a few keyboards for my performances.

I think one of the tricks with the Roland drums is, first of all, they are TD-Drums derived, which means they are 'drummer-approved', and secondly, the thing that always strikes me sonically is they are quite 'ambient'... There's a LOT of 'room' around the samples - in fact, I remember when they first came out, a lot of people bitched about it! They were SO used to bone dry Canvas based drum sounds, the sound of a drum kit that actually sounded like a drum kit was quite strange, especially to arranger players, who, let's face it, don't often get out and play with REAL drummers a whole bunch!

BUT.... it strikes me that PERHAPS the new FX sections in the T3 might be able to dedicate a reverb to provide this early reflection/drum room sound, and STILL have another reverb for larger spaces as well. That might, along with mixing them hotter (you've got to face it, Yamaha don't exactly mix them front and center - wouldn't want any of their 'home' player retirees to have a heart attack, now ) finally get the drum sound to an acceptable amount of 'punch'.

To be honest, I quite like their toms already, and I heard some ghosting and the like on some of the new demos. It was just mixed WAY too far back for me! I don't think it's a quantum leap ahead, but it IS an improvement, IMO

I was underwhelmed by the piano, though... It still has that 'hole in the middle' sound, edges are well defined, but the middle three octaves sounds distant. It seemed only a small improvement (it's warmer, but still compressed, IMO - but perhaps the demo is being choked by the Master Compressor). Can't wait to hear the Purgatory Creek file through this...

No Chord Sequencer (the ONE Roland feature worth stealing more than the drum sound )

But it'll be fun to try and convert some of these new styles to Roland. Can't wait for that!

Very nice review and the shown samples are VERY good! Cristal clear voices close to perfection. Realize you do need HQ speakers- and ears to be able to recognize the quality of this great machine. When peope say ".... sounds from another room" .... there might be something very wrong with either cables routing, speaker locations or ears
I can't wait to get mine

[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 09-10-2008).]

Firstly, great job by the YamahaPKOwner team on putting up the review and the demos!

However, I disagree with the reviewer on YamahaPkowner that the new T3 sounds grittier or dirtier. The acoustic sounds individually are wonderful and the Sa2 voices are a marvelous implementation, but the entire keyboard sounds the same as previous models; docile and over-compressed not live and colorful. Even with the new DSP section, the keyboard sounds like a plate of glass. It's almost Muzak-like???

After owning both the T1 and the T2 and now the Korg Pa2. I can tell you there is a presence about the Korg samples, even without effects, that just emote a more lively colorful performance.


------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

I liked some of the voices. The saxes stood out. I agree with Diki about the piano sound. The 2 buttons for control over the SA voices isn't ground-breaking anymore. MotifXS owners have already been enjoying that feature for a while now.

The drums seem to be getting a little better. Still way too compressed IMO though.

Yamaha still clearly doesn't want to attract any "younger" crowds for the Tyros line. As with many of their demos you get 99.99% jazz, big band, and other more classic styles of music. I listened to the few mondern styles they had.., and to be honest..., for the generation those styles are geared towards.., Yamaha ain't gonna be foolin anyone with those styles.

I'm curious though. For being a 61 key speakerless keyboard..., the body size of the Tyros is quite large. The height on it seems a bit much considering this model has no speakers.

Very, very impressive...demos are awesome....sounds(and the control you have over them) are certainly a step above anything else out there.

Can't wait to actually spend some time with it...gonna be fun.

Ian

Ian,

You might want to crawl out from under that rock once in a while so you can see and hear the real world before continually making such blanket statements. "Sounds and control that are certainly a step above anything else"? You've got to be kidding! My ancient Fairlight has more control over the sound than the Tyros 3 and it's been around for nearly 30 years. Real time knobs, switches, wheels, and several pedals (all fully programmable I might add). I've been switching between samples, adjusting filters, vibrato, LFO, levels, pan, FX, and anything else I want too for a long, long time. Even Yamaha's antiquated CS80 has more control over the sounds it creates than the Tyros 3. Give some of Vangelis' work a listen sometime and hear the variations in sound he creates simply by manipulating the CS80's real time controls. Then take into consideration the CS80 was made back in 1977. Now that's truly awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ftIak06nBo&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djj3EAPbhWw&fmt=18


I hate to bring up Wersi or Lionstracs yet again but both of them also have more control over sounds than a Tyros 3 does. Also, both can play large disk streaming files that make the Tyros 3's SA1, SA2, and Megavoices sound like a child's toy. There are many keyboards available that have more features than the Tyros 3 is offering and these features were available years ago. The Korg Oasys is another case in point where it has multiple switches, knobs, a joystick, and foot pedals to control many aspects of its sounds. Spend some time with the Oasys and you'll see what an incredible performance keyboard it is.

I did like some of the sounds on the Tyros 3 demo's but by no means was I blown away by them nor were they any better than what I'm using already on my Wersi factory sounds. I'll hold out final judgment on the Tyros 3 until I play it in person, but considering the demos were highly polished and produced, I'm pretty sure the board isn't going to knock my socks off. Of course YMMV.


[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 09-10-2008).]

Nope, I ain't kidding.

Now, back under the Yamaha rock I go.

It's the brilliant (and easy) way Yamaha have provided control over the sounds...even you could handle it...the more experienced players will love it too.

Ian

PS...the CS80 (had one...also had a Jupiter 8) is not an arranger...and neither is the poky old Fairlight.

Gee...you gotta update your gear...must be hard times?

PSS...I haven't heard anything from Wersi or Lointracs that impressed me...at least from the lackluster demos....hardly ear-inspiring...may as well be listening to a Casio (my apologies to Casio).

I saw the new T3 video too...styles are good, this we know all, but the sounds not impress me at all.
SA2 is what they shown in the video demos??
this is just one key midi controller that activare a different layer sounds and the sounds response different.

hey...with gigastudio and Linuxsampler editor: http://linuxsampler.org/screenshots/gigedit_0_0_3.png
we can make totally the same!
for each sound we can add a new layer and add a new midi CC controller, the result is the same like a SA2.

4 years OLD feature...

Soon we release also the 32 sliders and 32 keys ON/OFF programmable CC controller, mean 64 CC new controls = SA64??

How about releasing some decent demos?

The ones I've heard are awful...if the instrument is as good as you say it is, why not back up your claims with something to showcase it's attributes, rather than be yakking on and on about it.

Ian

Before blame me, wersi and Casio...let your T3 to play ONE simple stupid 5Kb MP3..then maybe you can talk about the new OLD features implemented on T3.
I will also ee the new USB 2.0 there if still need 1 hour or half..for load 1Gb ram..
Enjoy what you play

Thank God that Yamaha have WAY more class than to come here and slam YOUR lame-ass pathetic sounding offering, Dom...

I can't believe you have the gall to come onto this forum, and continue to act as if you had anything to offer that remotely matched any of the Big 3's sonic offerings. Let's spell it out for you one more time. If YOU can't make your own arranger sound remotely as impressive as the competition, what's the point?

Oh yeah, that's right. WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU, aren't we? In OUR hands, it will cease to sound like a Casio (nice to see you acknowledging your REAL competition ) and will finally sound better than the T3, as per your promise.

You know what else we are better at, too?

Detecting bullshit.
------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry, Nigel, but can't you stop this guy spamming the forum? Because that's what it is. I'm waiting for him to throw in a year's supply of Viagra with every purchase, because the MS demos don't give ANYONE a woody

I know it seems a little harsh, but if he can come here and slam a legitimate manufacturer, surely we can slam back?
This is one puppy that deserves to be kicked (unless it quits biting )...

Lionstracs,
For what purpose do keyboardPLAYERS need an MP3 player?
Why should one want to load huge samples?
Keep in mind this is a arranger-keyboard forum.
You persist in slamming all brands and features continously and are not even capable to show styles/movies with 1/10th of the quality of the demo's shown on the T3 website??

You also persist in telling MS is far superiour and is able to do the same and 'better'. In fact MS is an average PC that ages even faster than keyboards hardware/software.

I hope you do not reply my message. I only want to let you know you behaviour is very annoying, you'd better preduce better demo's for your own sake.

Ian is right : "Just show us ONE decent demo of your MS"

visit http://music-tyros.com/ where you can find true professional demos ánd one of the best keyboards on earth! (in my view THE best)


[This message has been edited by kla4 (edited 09-10-2008).]

Diki,

It's only bullshit if what Dom were saying wasn't true. Of course you've never played a Mediastation so you're presuming it sounds like a Casio and doesn't have the features other arranger/workstations do and you'd be dead wrong.

You bash Domenic for voicing his opinions and yet you're talking out of your derriere by stating things about keyboards you've never even played in person. Sure Domenic needs to get some decent demos of the Mediastation but just because he doesn't have them up doesn't mean the Mediastation sounds like a Casio. You also say the Wersi is crap and yet you've never played one of those in person either. I think you should just refrain from commenting if you don't have first hand knowledge about the product. Conjecture doesn't suit you well.

When someone want to compare T3 performances
with an unfinished product, that cannot have a decent webpage with decent demos, that person toughs that all of us are idiots.
I think that this forum is not the adequate place to intend sell products.
Each new topic about some news the same bla bla bla........
It's boring.

MP3 players in a keyboard serve many functions. You can use MP3's as backing tracks, use them for a sound set when you take a break during a live performance, and even use them to save rough mixes of songs you are working on then take them with you on your iPod.

Why would anyone want to load huge samples? Realism that's why! If you think the Tyros 3 sounds are realistic then listen to any demo from Kontakt, Giga, Halion, or Miroslav and see just how unrealistic those Tyros 3 sounds are in comparison. Also, on systems like the Mediastation and Wersi you don't actually load the samples each time you play them, the sounds stream from disk so its not unlike selecting a sound on your Tyros.

The Mediastation is far from just an average PC nor does it age quicker than embedded systems like the Tyros 3. When new technology comes out you simply upgrade the hardware on the Mediastation and you are current with whatever is the pinnacle at that time. The Wersi is very similar. The cost of the upgrade is usually but a fraction of what you spend on a new keyboard. If you bought a Wersi back in 1999 you could still upgrade it today to the current OAS software. Name one Yamaha arranger from 1999 or any other Yamaha arranger that can be updated to the Tyros 3 specifications. I'll bet you can't name a single one.

In the case of the Tyros 2 and upcoming Tyros 3 for example, when new technology comes out you have to dump your existing arranger if you want to keep up with the Jones's because most embedded systems are not upgradeable.

There are great advantages to owning an open ended system and eventually all keyboards manufactured will use open architecture. It won't surprise me if Roland's next TOTL arranger uses and open ended system because Roland is more forward thinking than Yamaha.

[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 09-10-2008).]

I'm tellin ya Dom..., throw a MS my way (even as a loaner), and I'd be happy to do some sound demos for ya. All people really want to hear are the sounds and styles... From what I can tell..., many just want to hear the styles (without soloing).

Just play some sounds and record them..., play some styles and record those too. All the work can be done on the MS itself (it is indeed IMO a recording powerhouse compared to the top 3).

Ensnareyou..., why not post some sound demos with your MS. Sound of just the MS alone. I agree with you that the MS is a very underestimated board on this forum, but with many members here...., well talk is just that .., simply talk! People want to hear it. I have no doubt in the MS's abilities, but if you have one perhaps you can put some of this to rest for other members.

Again : Show a decent demo!

EVERY PC can run virtual (Native)Instruments,
EVERY PC is able to run MP3-players,
EVERY PC can playback (huge) samples,
so there is nothing revolutionary/'special' to an MS at all..... oh yes there is : awful user interface.

Especially the attitude of this guy makes me to never purchase something of his company. (sure, now Dom will start telling about 'his' products in the past)

Dom your posts/replies will be ignored by me, so please don't bother.

Ian said "PS...the CS80 (had one...also had a Jupiter 8) is not an arranger...and neither is the poky old Fairlight.

Gee...you gotta update your gear...must be hard times?

PSS...I haven't heard anything from Wersi or Lointracs that impressed me...at least from the lackluster demos....hardly ear-inspiring...may as well be listening to a Casio (my apologies to Casio)."

Ian ..

As an employee of Yamaha, you should really be more professional about your biased comments.

Show some class....



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 09-10-2008).]

Since you're making such bold statements perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to how the Mediastations Interface is "awful". Obviously you must have played and used the Mediastation in person to conclude that. Or are you one of those people who don't actually have to play or see the instrument in person to conclude its crap?

Also, I'm curious to know which PC can run all the applications that say Wersi or Lionstracs can and offer a similar type of interface and portability that's also stable?

Who wants to lug around a PC, 76 or 88 note controller keyboard, mixer, monitor, and GUI module when companies like Wersi and Lionstracs already make workstations that have all those same features and are stable?

Sorry my "class" doesn't meet your standards, Dan, but, then again, yours doesn't meet mine...guess we'll have to live with that fact.

I tell it like it is, as you do...if you think the demos by Wersi and Lointracs are wonderful, then you have more than a "class" issue.

If you are busy looking after your own methods of evaluation of Lointracs/Wersi, then you shouldn't have time to critize mine.

Ian

When I HEAR crap, that's what I call it... (you know, those flappy things on the side of your head you have decided to ignore, most of us still USE them!). I don't need to presume. I HAVE heard the MS. So have all of us here. It sounds terrible (unless you load it up with a fortune in VSTi's, and do your own style development, which, from what we can tell, no-one has yet done).

Prove otherwise, or get off the thread. I am tired to my bones of all you fanboys utterly incapable of providing one lick of truth to your rhetoric. I know that once you have been suckered into paying these vastly inflated prices, you go into a state of denial about how badly you have been conned. But the rest of us still live in the real world.

You know, the one where, if something IS good, it SOUNDS good on a demo.

Either make some good music on it, or shut up. Nobody with a T2 or G70 or PA2Xpro is ashamed to post their work. Why are ALL the MS owners so shy?

Because, in their heart of hearts, they know they've been conned, too...

I am not judging the keyboards. I am judging how you carry your responsiblity as a Yamaha employee.

It shows no class to critize a competitors product.

Chony good thinking....but let me ask everyone .....these arrangers sound great ....the Tyros 3 has all these new so called inovative ways to play SA sounds etc etc ....BUT lets not forget no matter how good they make them sound in demos that DOESN'T meant YOU will be able to make them sound that great in general......you could have the best KB in the world but thats no match for peoples personal playing talent...in fact I believe that the Tyros 3 in the hands of a not so good player will sound terrible because they wont have the talents to utilize these sounds & features properly...I hope you understand where I'm coming from.....The Tyros 3 doesn't make anyone a better player....with that said...I will also say that some people after hearing these T3 demos & then going out and'buying one will be sorely disappointed with the outcome thinking this magic arranger will solve their lack of skill, where someone on a Tyros 1 who is exception could make it sound unbelievable.....I personally would rather see Better & Easier Navigational live play features implimented then all this mumbo jumbo sound stuff....but that's me. At this point Im happy with sounds & styles....I'm not happy with Features on any arranger & hopefully one day they will listen to REAL pro players in the trenches to change them for the better then they are now.

Buyer beware!

You mean like Dom does?

How come this guy gets a pass, and Ian gets the same tired stuff..? Ian would spout the same stuff even if he WEREN'T employed by Yamaha... And given how class an act Steve is (YamahaUS1), let us not for one MOMENT try to pretend that Yamaha actually DO have any influence over what Ian says..

Let's just call a fanboy a fanboy, and have done with it. Plenty of company on this forum without the slightest job necessity, IMO.

Dom, OTOH, IS spamming the forum to tout his warez, and bad-mouthing ALL his competition for his own personal gain. Where is the outrage??

Aim it at where it belongs FIRST, Dan.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-10-2008).]

Judge me if you like...I still think the Wersi and Lointrac demos are awful....it has nothing to do with "responsibility" or "class"...it does, however have to do with my right to voice an opinion.

Ian

Diki,

You HAVE NOT seen or even played a Wersi or a Mediastation in person therefore you don't have a clue as to what either one truly sounds like. Everything else is merely conjecture on your part ands that's a fact!

I use my ears quite well thank you and I have a set of Mastering monitors as well as other high end studio monitors to listen through. If it doesn't sound good on my system then the problem isn't with the reference system, its the source. I can assure you both the Wersi and the Lionstracs have nothing to be ashamed of in the sound department.

If you truly believe that people all over the world have spent thousands and even tens of thousands of dollars on Wersi and Lionstracs and are refraining from bashing the instruments because they "paid too much" and are in "denial", you're a fool. I have an arsenal of pro keyboards, synthesizers, and samplers, most that many people have never seen let alone could ever afford. Unlike yourself, I have a solid basis to judge the Mediastation and Wersi side by side in person against all these other keyboards. Can you say the same?

You seriously need to shut the hell up if you can't offer opinions based in fact. Your endless rhetoric about how these high end arrangers are crap when you haven't even seen or heard one is a total waste of bandwidth.

A demo? No...? Just one teensy, weensy ickle one for Uncle Diki?

I thought so...

Begging for faith and trust, in the face of overwhelming proof (are ALL the demos really completely different to how it sounds? - and I mean a complete change, not 24bit crap as opposed to MP3 crap) is the last resort of religious fundamentalists.

Next you'll be trying to persuade me that the sun rises in the west, won't you..? As long as I NEVER go outside to look, you've got the same point as your 'don't trust the demos' argument. But there are windows in my house. Going to try to persuade me that the windows don't show me TRULY what is going on?

I mean, they COULD be mirrors, couldn't they?

Look, apparently, you HAVE played your MS enough to know how good it is. But, amazingly, for as long as you have had it, you've NEVER hit 'record' while you played it. I guess playback of ANY kind doesn't do justice to the subjective impression of magnificence you get while playing an über-expensive VSTi host. Ahhh, the smell of rich Corinthian leather...

Nigel......get the LOCK Ready!!

Nah, no lock needed...it's just a full and robust exchange of views!!

Of course Miden your so right.....if you want Robust exchanges just ask someone here to post a song instead of yapping about them

I think when persons try to compare the Tyros with the mediastation they are mixing apples and oranges.
They are not the same type of keyboard.
Just because on the Mediastation you can play styles and it has arranger features, does not put it in the same category as the Tyros.
The Tyros is just an arranger and is marketed as such.
The mediastation on the other hand is a different type of keyboard. Yes it is an arranger but it is also a lot more than an arranger.
It has features as would a traditional workstation would have and it also has audio recording. It uses computer technology to assemble some of its sounds.
So you see Tyros is really at best 30% of what the mediastation is.

That is why persons would buy the mediastation and pay a price that is more than a Tyros. Tyros is jus an arranger Mediastation is arranger, workstation DAW + integrated in a single unit.
Persons who own and have played a Korg PA 1x, 2x, or 800 or a Gem Genesys would be better able than Yamaha or Roland arranger users to understand what the Mediastation is.

When I hear person say that their computer can do this and that, so why do I need a mediastation, I have to laugh because they underscore that they do not understand what the mediastation is.
The mediastation prevents you from having to take to a gig and from having to set-up at a gig a computer, keyboard, soundcard, midi and USB cables. And prevents you from having to make it all work between different platforms.

One of the problems that mediastation have is marketing. Some one other than the developer needs to promote the product. They need to do like Yamaha, Roland and Korg and get some one to create materials and hype to appeal to peoples need for instant gratification and need to cover up their inability to use an electronic musical instrument.

There is no doubt that better demos would help in promoting the product. But I have to caution that online demos can go both ways. Some one can make a keyboard sound good in a demo and another person can make the same keyboard bad playing it live. Likewise a person could make a keyboard demo sound bad but another person can make that same keyboard sound good live.

I am sure all of us can take a T2 or a G70 use a GM bank for sounds and put up a real bad demo.

If the spects of the Mediastation are what they are advertised to be, even if the online demos are not what I expect them to be, it does not deter me from wanting to try the mediastation in person. I guess that is because I understand styles, VSTs, and the benefit of integration. I am not just a one fingered OTB CD sounding arranger player.

I agree with you man... I honestly think one of the biggest things about the MS that deters players here (other than lack of demos) is that the MS is literally a bad-ass music PC with one hell of a custom midi controller. I've noticed here that when something as complex as the MS with it's OS being computer based for example..., and with some here the moment you mention MIDI.., well they're running the other way. You're also right in that the MS isn't just an arranger. Sure it has arranger features, but it's so much more than that..., and it goes so much deeper than any traditional arranger made by the top 3. The arranger section is just one of the many HUGE features of the MS. The MS does have features that puts in a class above the other top arrangers too.

I will say however..., that you may not get a good response on this comment

--------------------------------------------
I am not just a one fingered OTB CD sounding arranger player.
--------------------------------------------

And one for Uncle Ian, too....pleeeease?

I completely agree... it IS more than just an arranger. But it is also LESS.

Kudos to the other side of things... of COURSE it is far beyond modern arrangers, stuff they don't have, and probably never will. BUT.... as a straight ahead arranger, supposed to sound great OOTB, great styles and sounds, inspiring grooves, well, there it doesn't quite match up, IMO. Little in the way of inspiration is supplied. You have to go out, find it, buy it and install it, and develop styles for it all by yourself.

Best of luck....

I guess I'm just another lazy American, but I like the instrument to inspire ME, and then, when I've got the time, I'll develop my own stuff too. Not HAVE to develop it all yourself, or you are going to have a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach. From the complete lack of any plethora of user MS demos of quality, let's just say I have a feeling that not many of YOU are really getting into custom sound and style development, either.

Or, at least, eager to let anyone hear the results of your efforts. Curious...

Style creation on an arranger KB from scratch is one of if not the most NEVER used or understood features........here lies where manufacturers should be developing on board ways to make this process more easier & efficient for the user vs how difficult it is at present we all know they have the ability just look at any workstation like Fantom, Motif etc......this would really shake up the arranger world & possibly people would keep their KB's instead of jumping to the latest & greatest looking for new styles year after year....but then companies wouldn't sell as many & that is where their heads are at $$$$$.........not the player.

Don't think for one minute Tyros 4 isn't already in the works for release in two years or so.....the Tyros Line cash cow wheels are turning.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-11-2008).]

Donny..., I agree in that the style creator (at least for making styles from scratch.., isn't used very much). Everyone is different to as style recording to one may be easy and to the other it may be harder. I will say this though..., one of the MAJOR things that I've noticed that keeps people from creating original styles is having to record the drum parts. Lets face it.., not everyone is a drummer.., and playing keyboard drums for some is extremely hard. There's just something about inputing the drum parts in ONE piece at a time that for some really just ends up in a dull and lifeless drum track..., then add to that having to create the drum fills...

Personally I think that today's arrangers have a very intuitive way of creating styles.. IMO it's not really the limitations of the board or difficulty in the OS, but I so often finds it's user limitations that hold them back. Again.., from what I've seen over the years.., when it comes to having to record those drums many have trouble in this area.

Of course this is why arrangers are SOOOO popular too... You get all those great pre-recorded drum tracks with good fills, intro, ect.

I will give a suggestion to some though. Often you can completey spice up a preset style by making changes to the drums only... You can actually with very little work go in and add more dynamics to the drum parts manually and make the style pop more. That's what I used to do with my older PSR's... I'd go into an existing style.., then I'd make changes in the drum sections. If the drums are dull and lack dynamics all you have to do is delete a few of the notes (snare for example..., and manually play that part adding more emphasis say on the second hit).., you can also delete a note here and there in the hi-hats and replace those with more expressive hits. You'd be amazed at how a style can completey pop when you make minute changes to the drum track to bring more life to it. Doing this is much easier than recording the entire drum track manually.

Squeak.....creating drums aside...they should make it easier to just cut/copy/paste all parts including Into/Ending/Multipads/ etc, by just DRAGING the parts in place ....so that you can easily MIX & MATCH any parts together & save them into a style to play instantly, this alone would be a very POWERFUL feature in arranger KB style creation.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-11-2008).]

Quote Dnj:...creating drums aside...they should make it easier to just cut/copy/paste all parts including Into/Ending/Multipads/ etc, by just DRAGING the parts in place ....so that you can easily MIX & MATCH any parts together & save them into a style to play instantly, this alone would be a very POWERFUL feature in arranger KB style creation.

This has always been very easy to do on the last few of the Technics top-of-range boards - certainly on the KN6500 / KN7000.
Gave me a bit of a shock when I found that the boards I have to choose from now, are so far behind and I am going to be stepping backwards as I move on to a different marque.
At todays prices (all other electronic equipment has got better and much cheaper over the last few years), ALL top of range boards should be far better than they actually are. Is this because they no longer have to compete with Technics?
Tony, Sheffield UK

Tony through the years many GREAT features on older arranger KB's have been lost or omitted from the latest & greatest new models....& many features included now are little used or needed or make sense for that matter......no one knows what was behind the decisions to do this ....for example why even Technics KB's are gone also...?.....all we can do is pick & choose FOR YOUR NEEDS & stop listening to what anyone says here.....look at YOUR needs & buy accordingly for your own personal playing happiness.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-11-2008).]

OH MY!......... I started off with the first post in this thread (which was suppose to be about the new T3 sound demos by the way) , and I kept reading post after post and reading and = ...descending in to the low level abyss of mire and clay and "brimstone" and when I got near the end of this slowing descending diatribe I felt "drained" emotionally and strangely, less than human in many ways. Gee, I wonder why that could be??

To be frank, I feel Ian has a propensity to go on the "attack" when he feels Yamaha is threatened in some way and it's more than just your average respectful disagreement it's many times more of a "bitter" and scarcastic 'attack' on the person and which, in my opinion, crosses the line between a healthy debate and/or a "respectfully" heated exchange of words into one of "ad hominem", done spitefully with vengeful sarcasm as its intention.

I don't quite understand why some people have to stoop so low as to degrade the conversations we discuss into one of personal attacks and to do it in such a disrespectful and blatant manner. I realize our discussions can get heated but we need to pause and take a deep breath and count to 100 if necessary before we "lash" into someone with our double-edged cutting words, as if we're trying to make mince meat out of them and feed them to the lions. You may feel that way in your heart but you don't have to spell it out in words on this forum, right? Some of you feel you need to and I think it takes our once respectable SZ Forum and makes it look like we're a bunch of two year old spoiled brats that are out of control.

>> Now, back to the original topic.

I thought the T3 demos were a mix of some really good (breathy Sax was simply fantastic) to some rather not so good (think Drum Kits ) I also didn't care much for the Synths (at least those demo'd anyway) but I rather liked the Pop Grand Piano and even the Rock Grand sounded pretty good to me.

I think that Al hit the nail on the head when he said the T3 had that CD polished sound, which to me, is indicative of a lack of "ambience" in the overall sound or as Al put it: lacking "that 'Live' feel". Of course the T1 and T2 were also noted for the same CD polished sound and it looks like it's repeated in the T3. People who like the CD polished sound will probably go gaga over the T3 and buy one asap, those who don't.. well??? I would have definitely bought a T3 if the Drum Kits were up to snuff and it had 15 more keys. If Yamaha sells a boat load of the T3's as is, then most likely they will continue to stick to their present protocol of 61 key 'only' totl arrangers. If the T3 fizzles at the "box office" then maybe Yamaha will change course and start thinking of that other 50% of arranger players who would prefer 76 or more keys to play on, and the T3 successor i.e. (T4 or whatever they decide to call it) will indeed have at least an option of a 76 key version.

Anyway, I like the fact that Yamaha is continually advancing the "sound realism" of their keyboard instruments and, needless to say, we will see the trickle down effect of the new SA2 voices and other sound improvements on the next traditional Yamaha Workstation that will be coming out in a year or so in replacement of the Motif XS. I understand that Yamaha will NOT be using the Motif emblem on their next totl Workstation and will instead be calling it something else. We shall see...

Best,
Mike

Nice of you to be "frank", Mike...now, how about trying "polite, and "respectful".

Please stop referring to me in your posts...unless you want a response that may or may not appeal to your delicate nature.

You can always e-mail me privately with your concerns about my biases or whatever annoys you...but then you wouldn't have the opportunity to try and make yourself look smart in front of the other members.

It isn't working.

Ian

Erick-B

Thank you for posting, I enjoyed the sounds and the organ parts sounded really good. However like many other posters I find the sounds too CD like. Having said that, it doesn't stop it from being great as a one man band & musical tool.

Ian

I admire your enthusiasm but you have a professional relationship with Yamaha and as such you should be an ambassador for them. Your actions could reflect better and show a lack of professionalism. Never lose the enthusiasm just adopt a little discretion.

LIONTRACKS

Send a keyboard to Diki or another SZ member on loan. Have them do a demo for you then you both can be in the spotlight. Chances are someone could do a hell of a job for you even if he is in your face. Then 2 things get showcased their musical ability & your products ability. Let’s face it you product might sound fantastic but you need someone who can demo it correctly and that has not happened as yet. All we seem to get are specifications.

I have now put on my Flame proof suite.

Jerry

Thanks Mainer...I appreciate your advice.

Ian

From what Dom has said, apparently, at least HUNDREDS of MS's have been SOLD, maybe thousands. That's a LOT of keyboards out there, for next to nothing decent to be heard from, IMO. You would think that he wouldn't really NEED to give one away just to get a decent demo.

Sure, I'd LOVE to have a loaner MS, but somehow I just don't see Dom turning up at my door in his Corvette with a freebie!

I've already thrown that idea to Dom. Hell he can toss an MS my way (even on a loaner) and I'd be glad to post some demos..., and I'm sure others here are willing to do the same.

It's just weird why the OWNERS themselves are unwilling...

What do they know that we don't (other than apparently, you shouldn't ever record it, because that doesn't do justice to the experience of actually sitting in front of it!)?

Diki..., that's a great question. I'm with you 100%. Several people here have them, but no one is showing what it can do. Donny's always saying show your talent and talk is just talk. He's right..., and in the case of the MS's reputation here.., TALK ain't doing sh@# for this keyboard..., people here need to HEAR it.

Ian

Thank you, it’s not brilliance on my part, I've been there. LOL

Diki

Whatever Liontracks is doing isn't working. They honestly need some good feedback from people who understand this market. A 90 day loan to the right people on this forum could make a hell of a difference.

I sell a Computer management system for the Auto-Body industry. The product is from Australia and it's brilliant. Let me tell you why. The first thing the founder did was ask what people wanted, checked out what was available, and then thought outside the box. This was over 20 years ago and we've been around for all that time. He also hired terrific programmers.
To this day he is still in contact with his customers implementing changes suggested by them. Of course he had to reject many suggestions but knew the right ones to pick. Last but not least the founder is one of the most creative and brilliant people I've ever known. This was a customer driven product. The bottom line was the founder would call his customers and ask what improvements they would like to see.
It would be harder for Musical instrument companies to model that approach because of the large numbers. This forum would be a terrific place for such things and is perfect place to get positive exposure for smaller companies. Liontraks is going to have to put up or shut up. I think there is a lot of potential but if it is unrealized then is wasted.

Jerry

In this moment i'm not able to give MS..all sold out, including some prototype that then I have to replace the new mixer board V4 too.

What I can do:
When i get the new MS hardware production boards, I can reserve ONE MS X-76 Expanded 64 bit with MS OS 3.0 Kubuntu for FREE.
( I have a small idea to who give this one..we will see when i have the MS hardware ready.. )

then I can also make small promo...to offer 10/15 MS x-76 expanded 64bit, at only 1500 USD ( mean less than 1000 euro now).
Who then will place one order by email, I can reserve, all the remain 180 MS are already reserved and we have to shipping to Turkey and others oriental country.

More I can not do right now.

LIONTRACKS

I think all you need to do is lend a machine for 90 days & see how it goes.

The reason I mentioned Diki is he can be very critical, but I have found him to be truthful, talented, and on point.

Give the Keyboard to one of your buddies you will not get great feedback.

Choose someone tough & talented and you will make great strides.

I beleive in the potential of your keyboard greatly. In the case of a car fit & finish are paramount. Keyboards fit & finish of it's sonic capabilies count. It all has to work together. Critical advice will get you further.

Good Luck

Jerry

Drag and drop would require a PC editing program from the arranger makers, however I do know that on the Korg you can use ANY part of ANY style and insert it into a new style, or even one you are editing.

You want to use the 8 bar pattern from variation 4 on a swing style, and put it into a rhumba style you can do it (erghhh!!!) but you can, the ability is already available on the Korg style creator/editor.

You can create a style using 10 different source styles if you wanted to.

I DO think however that the makers could streamline this function, and the ONLY way to do that is to provide PC/Mac software editors.

Dennis

I think the point I have been trying to make for a long time now, is that I understand how, with infinite talent, and infinite time, you can make the most groundbreaking stuff ever heard on any arranger, EVER!

But then, OOTB, there just doesn't seem to be the 'I gotta play this!' factor that the Big 3 give you from their demos...

Whether this is important to the company or not, and whether they'll bother to update the demo library is up to them... But Yamaha don't sell the numbers they do by making demos that are a pale shadow of what the instrument is capable of. They show it to it's BEST, and let us make the extrapolation from there, rather than either show it as it's worst, or prove inadequate to show it at it's best (in which case, they need to hire the best demo-ers available. Do Yamaha hire the level of demo-er that Dom does? Hell no, they don't!)

If you can't make yourself available for every interested party to drive a few miles and actually PLAY one of your instruments (not a few thousand!), you'd better stand by your demos as the BEST your instrument can do, because who in their right mind would pick an arranger by how BAD it sounded in it's own factory demos?

Dom,
I just ordered one through your website under above mentionned conditions/price!

Kind regards,
Fred

WOW Dom thats a great deal you have offered on the 76......
BTW is the MS 61 almost ready for market also?

Exactly

THESE ARE ARRANGERS! Arrangers live on Styles. We can get GREAT SYNTH WORKSTATIONS for a lot less money and with far more keys. We are paying a premium for ARRANGERS. Styles.....Styles.

If the styles are not there...You have an expensive synth. Thats where Yamaha runs away with it. Not to mention there are those who were tired of buying synth modules and synths that had 50% Techno/HipHop sounds,

We get real sounds. No one does acoustic sounds better than Yamaha. Play the Soprano Sax on the PA and the Yamaha. No comparison, The Flutes, clarinets, The Saxes, REAL instruments. Anyone can create synth sounds.

How many can sample instruments They make. I believe Yamaha is the only company that actually makes a real acoustic piano and most of the other instruments they sample are theirs as well. Its noticeable. I loved my Triton so much bought the PA2x. I wanted to love the Korg but working with the Yamahas at work than coming home to the Korg opened my eyes. At that time I could not buy the Korg at 10% below cost becasue we were not dealers then. I still passed on the Tyros 2 and paid $1000 more for the Korg, It cost me $400 to learn the Yamaha was better for me and that was before the Tyros 3 came out!

Who needs MP3 playback on a keyboard. when you have sounds as good as Yamaha you can use MIDI FILES!! Hook up an Ipod to the aux in if you want Mp3 playing through your arranger.

Thanks Fred and to the others.
Get the all new orders and already reply by email.
Some other SZ members asked me to not display his name here for some interesting reason...
Don't wory, I will never post here the names untill they allow me.

Here one new Qstyle with the all giga sound demo abd B4II ASIO..is only a demo..I can not play so well like you there... if you criticize..i don't care. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/styles/Mistydemo.mp3

cheers

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 09-13-2008).]

I don't care how badly (or well) you play.

I am quite capable of listening past the trumpet part, and hearing how those drums don't swing, stumble around, and generally sound completely disconnected from the rest of the track.

So, remember, it's not YOU I'm criticizing... OK?

Oh, and BTW, the SA trumpet sound in the T3 completely blows this sound away. Once again, it's the SOUND, and not your playing of it I'm talking about.

34GB of sounds doesn't seem to go as far as you would think...