Well said!!

I think alot of people would do well to read this post more than one to really understand it.
But if you do not understand the consept of the mediastation, that post would not make any sense.


Perhaps a definition of arranger needs to be worded?

I think Dom knows who is his market very well. It is not the T2 market who is the passive arranger market, but the PA2x Motif market who actively use alot of the features of their arranger. Those people integrate styles, sequences, audio files to get the job done.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-12-2008).]

The reason I don't ask them "why" they bought their arranger is because most of them didn't buy their arranger because they aren't older than twelve! The reality is most arranger keyboards are sold to parents who buy them for their kids. The remainder of arranger purchases are made by older people who buy them as a hobby instrument for their home. The arranger is the organ of yesteryear. The number of people who actually use arrangers professionally is so small that no manufacturer would make an arranger if that's the only niche they had.

In Europe arrangers are more well received and used professionally more often than abroad but even that market is so very small that without little Billy and Katie's mom or dad buying arrangers, arranger sales would cease to exist.

If you believe that Yamaha, Korg, or Roland is selling tens of thousands of TOTL arrangers you'd be dead wrong. The majority of sales are low to mid priced instruments sold as first time keyboards for small children and the geriatric crowd. Be it an arranger or any other keyboard in the $3K+ market sales are not astronomical. If you look at the sales figures of high end instruments sold few if any have ever achieved sales status of 5000 units let alone tens of thousands. Ask George Kaye, Frank, or DanO if they've ever sold or heard of anyone selling 5000 or more high end arrangers and I'll bet I know the answer. A resounding NO!

I've sold high end pro audio gear for many years and from personal experience I can tell you selling any product be it keyboard, guitar, microphone, or recorder that costs anywhere beyond $2,000.00 is nearly impossible. Most people would sooner have a colonoscopy than part with $2,000.00.

I can't believe that no-one with an MS gives a damn about proving me wrong!

Back when I got my G70, there were a lot of negative comments about the OOTB sound of it. Some quite hostile. I COULD have simply stated my opinion, over and over ad nauseam about how I disagreed with their view.

Instead, I took a whole 15 minutes of my precious time and simply made a random OOTB demo. Random style, all OTS's no edits, nothing. It changed quite a few people's minds, and at least provided something objective to talk about, an example to refer to, if you will...

Am I just a nut job, with nothing better to do, or is something fishy about how few MS owners are prepared to do as little work to provide more than simple anecdote?

BTW, here it is: http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=150.msg692#msg692 - so come on, you MS owners. Better this with OOTB sounds and styles. As good as you say the MS is, this should be a walk in the park!

I have DONE discussing this issue. I have shown you mine...

SHOW ME YOURS, or just give it a rest. Please... (for all our sakes)

AMEN!

Diki nice demo but a bit dated......why not post another with some of your tweaks..& please include trumpet & brass this is what I didn't like on the G70 if you can & a few different styles.

Thanks

Diki....also I dont want to be like others who just talk & I dont want you to be out here alone ...so here was my Korg PA800 first "out of the box demo" also from last year without any tweaks, pedals, etc, just played as is..
http://tinyurl.com/3h4auy

it wasnt long afterwards Zuki saved me from the KB




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-13-2008).]

It's not an OOTB demo if you tweak first, Donny

And it being dated is EXACTLY the point..! I'm not doing this just now to prove a point in this discussion. I did it ages ago, when I first got my G70. It didn't take years to make me post something, I was more than happy with the sound OOTB, and quite pleased to show it.

Why don't MS users feel the same way?

And to the Genesys... Every day you play in public, you are facing exactly the same issues. Somebody (whether they speak up or not) is not going to like your playing. But does that stop you? And, you know what? I don't think I can remember the last time anyone posted something good here that WASN'T praised... Sure, they'll often engender technical questions (like the Israeli MS demo, which turned out to not be an arranger demo after all), but in fairness, good demos get the kudos they deserve here.

We're a critical bunch, for sure, but praise AND criticism seem to be mostly (except from rabid fanboys, and who takes anything THEY say seriously in the first place? ) reasonably accurate. Show me a first class demo from a user, and I will sing it's praises regardless of what machine it was made on. I have no axe to grind when SHOWN I'm wrong. I simply refuse to be persuaded without a shred of example.

OTOH, there have been some pretty terribly demos up from time to time. If at all possible, I do my level best to ignore the playing, and try to concentrate on the SOUND alone, but some demos make this hard to do (they'll usually drown out the arranger in their awful RH!). I have learned to simply not say anything about these.

But put up a great MS demo, or a Wersi one, that sounds real, dynamic and exciting, and I am the FIRST to give it it's due. My problem isn't with the 'open' arrangers per se. My problem is with the FACT that, despite lavish fanboy praise from their owners, this does NOT translate to any decent demos from their proud papa's.

Some of these owners have fairly impressive resumés. So musical proficiency shortcomings and their resultant shyness shouldn't be a factor, you would think. So what IS the holdup? The longer it goes on, the fishier it all smells, and the harder it is to take the fanboys' gushing seriously.

Here one new Qstyle with the all giga sound demo abd B4II ASIO..is only a demo..I can not play so well like you there... if you criticize..i don't care. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/styles/Mistydemo.mp3


cheers

Dom,

I think we can safely say that the MS is not a keyboard for people who want an Out Of The Box arranger. It is more of a workstation that has to be customized from step 1.

If you're very talented you can make it sound better than any other board out there. If you're not, don't even try - just stick with Roland, Korg or Yamaha. Unfortunately, what you have put together in your demo, does not do justice to what the true power of this machine is. Big pity. I did not hear one thing on your demo that cannot be done better by Yamaha, Korg or Roland. If you give me one for free I'll make you some decent demos.

The MS the way it is now, is only for an extremely small group of people...

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 09-14-2008).]

And let the bashing begin.

Its apparent that the person playing the demo has a part to play in whether the demo sounds good or not.
Look we have had two demos of the mediastation one of them which got comments like -------unbelievable that is not a keyboard producing those drums----- and the other we will probably get comments like -----my G70 and T2 can do that------.
Mediastation is in a lose lose situation if you have a demo that is good showing off the mediastation’s real use, you get request to take it down to a T2 or G70 standard. And when mediastation takes it down to the T2 and g70 standard, you get comments like -------my G70 and T2 can do that and much better------.


BTW it amazes me as to why would someone want to buy a mediastation with its innovative features to buy it based on OTB styles and sounds.
I can understanding buying a T2 G70 for that reason because what you get on the keyboard is what you get and no more. There is no way to drastically change the T2 or G70 with features, sounds or styles.


If you are judging the mediastation from the OTB online demos, then you are demonstrating that you are missing and not understanding the point and concept of the mediastation.
Dom’s real markets for the mediastation are the Korg PA2x and Motif SX market.
The people who are creative and want a synth/workstation with arranger technology. If you haven’t been paying attention, arrangers and workstations have been steeling features from each other and IMO there will be a convergence of workstations and arrangers and audio players to where you will not be able to make an absolute distinction between them.

Dom’s biggest problem is not with the product but with Language and marketing.
People do not want to know the technical details of the product.
He needs to have some one who can adequately explain how the product can be beneficial to his potential customers. Then he needs to have some one put up online demos that would impress his potential market.

Also, he would need to explain the ease it takes to customize the product to the
customer’s liking.


Its all about MARKETTING and strategic placement of your product----- that is how the big three are doing it.


If you don’t believe me, analyze how Yamaha is hyping the T3 even if it has nothing ground-breaking. Take a look at how Korg is marketing the PA2x OS upgrade. Compare those two examples with how Roland first marketed the G70 and where they place the G70 )in places where you could not get them in the U.S) and note the negative effect it had.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-14-2008).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-14-2008).]