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http://www.thelonearrangers.com/yamaha-t...rison-pa2x.html
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Tyros 3 Initial notes and comparison with PA2x - 08-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Having had both the PA2x and the T2 to play with, I can finally make a real comparison to the T3

First the sounds. Unless you hear this thing live you won;t fully appreciate the difference between this and the T2. Its not just a T2 with SA2 voices, It's a T2 on steroids. The distortion efx you can put on the guitars is amazing, as is the automatic "correction" of guitar voicing despite the chords played.
There are a ton of effects (I believe you can use up to 5 per style which really allows the mixes to breathe and create more space then the T2 which is very sterile and CD like. You can have that with the T3 but can also put more depth into the songs and styles. This is far more than a small upgrade. There are far more voices of all types (over 700).

One thing I noticed right away were the sliders. I was initially afraid they would be too small and inaccurate from the pictures....and yes although they have a shorter throw than the Korg they are much smoother and feel much sturdier and are pretty sensitive. The Korg's were too far away from the screen and seemed less precise and more "plastic" and had slightly more wobble to them. Over all the buttons and hardware are a lot larger and sturdier feeling and they light up so you always know where you are and what's going on. Korg seems to be still using the tiny button technology from their first Tritons.

The layout is better than the T2. I especially like the sliders front and center, and the 4 Pads on the left side as well. The redone effect engine makes a huge difference in the general overall sound. Major change there.

The Live Drums are far better. Far better and more of them. Again I think the new EFX engine has something to do with that as well as better samples. The SA2 controls and sounds are amazing. The whole keyboard sound live through studio monitors and a Sub far exceeded what I expected. But I really like the polished CD quality of the Yamaha mixes verses the looser sounding Korg, Although due to the effects one can make it sound less so. The Korg had a lot of multi effects which helped make it more "live" sounding. With the T3 Yamaha allows both a live sound or a tightly compressed mastered CD sound.

I also really like the IDC the LAN Internet Direct Connection, I immediately put in on the network and downloaded some Music Finder Styles. Thats a great feature. Want a song or style? A few button pushes, you got it. Thousands to choose from. My credit card is on file so it easy to just download what we need from the keyboard. But many are free as well. Especially the music finder stuff. You can download and audition a piece of everything through the actual keyboard before you buy it. Thats one huge advantage of the Yamaha. Endless styles and songs already out there at your finger tips. Thats one of the things I like most over the Korg, a TON of immediate styles and songs to download right to the board. BUt those who use Yamahas are already familiar with that.

The acoustic and orchestral sounds are Yamaha's forte. But then again Yamaha samples their own musical instruments. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the great samples but they seem to know something about Pianos,Guitars, and Horns,

When I had the Korg I yearned for Yamaha's Soprano Sax and Flute sounds, The only sound I really miss from the Korg is the great scat voices. I'm hoping Yamaha will release a scat voice pack. Korg had better human sounding voices ahhs and oohs. The one touch Pad sounds, arpeggios and loops are new FAR better than the T2

I did not get to deep into the works but at the outset I have to say its built like a tank. Big lit buttons, Smooth sliders, nice keyboard (although I will use an RD700 88 key MIDI'ed 90% of the time)

No motorized screen (which I never understood the need for on the Korg) but a bright TFT screen that needs no contrast control and VGA out looks great on external monitors. I do find myself touching the screen now and then. (6 years with a Triton will do that)But I do like the edge buttons better as the screen stays clean.

SO far my expectations have been exceeded and I have only scratched the surface. Like I said before. On paper specs to specs this is a huge upgrade. In reality its even more than that.

There is a very much wider gap between the PSR900 and the T3, I felt the PSR900 was 2/3s of the T2, Its about 1/8th on the T3. The next PSR should be quite the upgrade.

And the Manual is about 1/2 that of the PA2x....but there are less things and features to program and mess with in that regard.


The T3 is EXPANDABLE via Voice Packs from Yamaha. This is a huge plus for me as the engine is there. To be able to add voices without dealing with sample editing is a mega plus for me.


Cons...I hate the seemingly same string patch they use on many styles in Variation four. Can't wait to see what they come up with for additional voice paks....

I also would have liked to see one more foot switch to control each the SA2 sound controllers instead of the one programmable one. However I don't use a Volume pedal maybe I can reprogram that. Haven't looked into that.....Hmmmmm

Actually I cut and pasted that from this forum LOL....Its my "review"

I use that forum among others to share and get honest critique of my own song creations and will repost the songs using the T3 voices as many were recorded years ago on a variety of modules.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-15-2008).]

Don't agree with you...

I have a Pa2x, a T2, and now a T3, and its not such a great upgrade.

The SA2 clarinet, trumpet and sax are very good - but that's all I can say is the real upgrade.

The new drums are even more plastic sounding than the old ones. The piano is shinier than the Korg's but the Korg's is more authentic for solo playing. Guitar mode on Pa2x by far, far, outshines anything that the T3 can do. The FX on the T3 are slightly better than the T2, but performing through a sound system in an ambient hall those small differences will be immediately lost. The sliders are not nearly as customizable as Korg. You're right that Korg has them placed in the wrong place on the keyboard but at least they do things! Comparatively, on the T3, you are EXTREMELY limited in what you can do with the sliders - even the programmable one.

If you own a T2, I would not suggest upgrading to the T3 unless you play lots of Irish or Klezmer music (Irish pipes and clarinet). That clarinet is amazing for Jewish music.

Of course the T2 is better than the T3, but I would not go so far as to call it a "T2 on steroids." I think it should be called T2.1.

I'll write up a fuller review next week.

(PS: with regards to the manual, Yamaha's is just as long as the Korg's -- it's just that Korg is nice enough to print you the full thing, whereas on Yamaha if you want the FULL manual, you've got to print it yourself...)

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 10-16-2008).]

Chony,

Congratulations on the T3! What an amazing opportunity for you to review the Pa2, T2, and the T3. I look forward to your continuing reviews. I'm curious what pushed you over the edge to get a T3 rather than be satisfied with the Pa2/T2 Combo???

Let's compare notes:

I love the Pa2, but wish it was a little more polished in certain areas. I love the tweakability of it, but that is a double edge sword as those setting can cause all kinds of trouble for players who are not so inclined to learn the board inside and out.

What really surprised me by the Korg was the depth and breath of the sounds. When I first moved from the Tyros 2 to the Pa2, I was somewhat disappointed in the sound comparison. However, as I dove into each categories sounds, I noticed Korg puts the really good sounds on Tabs 2,3,4 rather than right on Tab 1 in the menus. So in other words, you need to dig into ALL the sounds to find the creamy ones.

As far as the styles go, I'm sure you'll agree the Pa2 sounds more "Contemporary" in terms of the styles meeting today's music. The T2 seemed to be catered to the Schlager and European Organ market. The Korg seems to be targeted to the young workstation crowd, although they do have some really nice traditional styles and voices.

The real kicker for me on the Pa2 is the Songbook function. It is so much more powerful and mature than the Yamaha Musicfinder. It actually allows you to manage your gigs better. The T2 forced you to implement workarounds by either using Performances mapped to registrations or some other hybrid method. The Korg simply allows you to store your entire keyboard setups to a songlist and save sub-lists as gigs. The caveat with the Korg is the issue of custom styles and sounds on the hard disk. This problem seems to plague most of the KB manufacturers.

I agree that the motorized screen is sort of overkill, but it really is cool and slick and I really think it was Korg's way of "showing off" it's technology rather than an ergonomic choice. With that said, I could see where the Yamaha screen tilt mechanism would be damaged by heavy handed musicians or someone walking by and catching their shirt on it or something like that. The Korg screen seems to be much more solid. However, the T3 screen looks much more clearer and colorful thanks to it's higher resolution.

What puzzles me are the comments about the build quality comments about the Korg vs the Yamaha. In the Pa2, Korg implemented at least a decade of engineering from the Triton series buttons and knobs and installed it in the Pa2. How many thousands of Tritons used in the Music Industry have battle tested those designs?? I run into Korg Tritons that are over 10 years old all the time that are still in tact and the buttons and knobs function perfectly???? I don't understand that comment. I actually felt the T2 was more delicate than the Korg, and as a matter of fact had to replace my DIRECT key on the T2 twice. Do you think the T3 is built better than both the T2 and the Pa2???

The other thing about the Pa2 which I love is the size of the board. The height, depth and width are all petite in my opinion. It fits very nicely on all types of stands and keyboard bags. The T2 width from front to back was super wide and the length of the board was just slightly smaller than the Pa2 even though the Korg had 76 keys!!!!!! Is the T3 any more petite than the T2?

Hopefully, you can test out the harmonizer in the T3 to the Korg's. Did it improve at all over the T2??? The Pa2's TC Helicon is amazingly smooth. No unintended distortion. However, it doesn't have pitch correction like the T2 had.

As far as the IDC connection to Yamaha's mother ship goes; to me it was just a Yamaha cash cow. The styles were not refreshed very frequently, cost $6.95 each and the selection was not that great. The Internet connection was sluggish and not very usable IMHO. It just seemed like it was Yamaha's way of shaking-down the customer's wallet. What's the big deal? Simply connect the keyboard to the computer, download styles from an internet site on the computer and transfer them to the KB's hard disk. Is that so hard to do? I rather not pay extra for that connectivity, but rather pay for more important features like digital outputs which the Korg has. Does the T3 have any digital outputs?

Let's see did I leave anything out?? That's it for now.


[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 10-16-2008).]

Al, I couldn't agree more with everything you've said about the Korg Pa2x. The Korg is the professional's instrument.

There's a few reasons I bought the T3:
- When it comes to my business, I will not skimp on equipment. My attention to quality has led to good business which in turn pays for the keyboard and more...
- I'm still not ready to perform with the Pa2x. Everything I use is custom and it'll take a while until I've transferred everything.
- I love the Yamaha clarinet, trumpet, E guitars and saxes.

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 10-16-2008).]

There you have it. The T3 Drums are NOT the bees knees! Who would've guessed?

Bill (Wersi), I realize that your opinion of the T3 Drum kits don't match up to chony's opinion but somehow I find myself trusting chony's opinion over yours my friend. You don't happen to sell Yammies on the side now do you Bill? Because if you do I could see how the prospect of "losing" money might sway your otherwise honest opinion. If you don't sell Yammies on the side then it is just one man's opinion vs. another man's opinion.

The reason your opinion didn't mesh up with me on the true nature of the T3 Drum kits Bill (according to what chony has recently attested to, and who also has no axe to grind or money or stock invested in the Big Y ) is that after hearing the T3 Drum kit demos online from Yammie and elsewhere for myself I could immediately tell that they were very similar sounding to the T2's drums, both in substance and quality. That said, I could not really fathom how the T3 drum kits could sound "so much better" in person when the online demos didn't demonstrate to me how they could. Yamaha, in creating those factory Drum Kit demos, were no doubt trying to put their best foot forward and I'm sure used highly expensive recording equipment plus expert software programming and sound engineers to make them what they were. With all that invested in the demos and to have them sound about the same as the T2 drums I knew right off that they wouldn't sound "much better" in person. Sometimes that can happen i.e. (where the online demo doesn't do a sound justice and it is better when heard in person) but that is usually the case when the demos heard online are done haphazardly and recorded with less than stellar recording equipment. OTOH, Yamaha has a "VAST" amount of resources available to them to record online demos in a professional and expert fashion. When the samples aren't up to snuff though {case in point, the T3 drum kit samples} , then the demos will almost always translate to roughly "same type of sound" when they are heard in person. And that is my opinion...

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike

Where have I said that it was other them my opinion, after hearing them live.

Bill

Sorry guys, but Bill's 'honest' opinion is that none of you are even CAPABLE of telling a good sound from a bad one unless you are actually seated at the keyboard! Kind of puts a spoiler on the audience's reaction, doesn't it?! If YOU can't tell unless seated at it, better not use it for recording at all... what chance does your audience have?

Honestly, guys, can you 'trust' the opinion of a guy that keeps posting that awful Wersi stuff proudly? Anyone that calls that stuff good, I'm sorry, but any further reviews have to be tempered with the knowledge that perhaps his ideas of 'good' sound and styles varies VASTLY from mine...

No, I understand it was your opinion Bill. What I am trying to get across is I couldn't understand "how" you came to that conclusion after hearing the online demos for myself and knew from those demos that the T3 drums were not a significant improvement over the T2 drums (if at all). Yamaha has the "means" to record factory demos using all the latest equipment and with equally expert qualified personnel at their disposal. So the demos would not be hindered in any way from poor quality production and what is being heard in the demos is basically the "real" sound of the Drum kits coming through in the .mp3's. So immediately it told me that the "samples" were roughly of the same quality of samples that are on the T2 because the sounds on the T3 Drum kits sounded roughly the same as the T2 Drum kits to my ears and all the T3 Drum kit demos further substantiated that fact.

So because of that, I was highly skeptical that the Tyros3 Drum kits were going to sound "much much better" in person. And now chony has confirmed my suspicion that they don't.

Hey, I'm not faulting you at all Bill. You gave your opinion and you have every right to do so. I would have also liked it if your opinion held up in the court of public opinion too. Unfortunately, the fault lies squarely on Yammies shoulders, because even though the T3 has new Drum kits (and even new Drum samples) those samples apparently haven't translated into better Drum sounds on the T3 like we were hoping and Yamaha was leading us to believe with their "all new drums on the T3" marketing approach.

Oh well... maybe we'll see (hear) a significant improvement on the T4 Drum kits in three or so years down the road. Maybe by then they will see fit to put in the same Drum Kits that the new Motif XS successor will have when it is released in a couple years or so. That will give Yamaha another year or so to contemplate whether or not to do it. Hopefully they will eschew the political correctness of continually putting in inferior Drum Kits in their totl arrangers, and do what their customers (and potential new customers) have been urging them to do for the past decade or more, and that is to put in the same or similar quality Drum Kits that they have and use on their totl Workstations. The consumer is paying more for Yamaha's totl arrangers then they would if they bought one of their totl workstations. Is it always going to be "pay more and get less" when it comes to Yamaha's more expensively priced totl arrangers than it is when you buy one of their totl workstations?? If it is, then Yamaha should reduce the price of their totl arrangers significantly in my opinion.

Best,
Mike

Possibly, if Yamaha are going to release voice packs for the T3, a selection of no compromise drumkits might be the FIRST thing they work on...

From the DTX and MotifXS series, they already HAVE a large library of drum samples, ready to go. It shouldn't take that much work, IMO...

Of ALL the sonic criticisms of the Tyros's, the drums are probably the thing most remark about. Shouldn't that make them the FIRST thing Yamaha make a voice pack for...?