I have heard talk about Yamaha styles being too much like a CD. What makes them good or bad? Your opinions are wanted, I am thinking about a new keyboard.

John C.

Hi John.

Since I'm one of the few arranger keyboard users who dont fancy the too
"machine" souding Yammie styles, I might as well be the first to reply.

I find the sound too clean, cold and polished, and styles is a kind of
too perfect. It don't sound "human" in my ears. Start the style and it
sounds the same level whatever style I hear,a kind of limited in peak.
If I did not feel it that way, I would probably been a Tyros owner long
time ago......

If you i.e. listen to Ketron SD1 or SD5, the bass and drums give a very
live feeling, and when swap styles, it don't sound like it's a totally
different orchestra playing, it give me a feeling of that's the same
"gang" playing.
The nearest I've heard who manage this, is so far Korg.

But again, as said before, this is very personal, just the way I hear it.

Happy Playing whatever keyboard we play on
GJ

From the perspective of some who prefers the the more polished sound of the Yamaha:

As someone who uses the Tyros for songwriting and recording purposes only, I like that it sounds more CD like. I would not use it for raw rock or dance stuff though. Think Michael Omartain and David Foster productions and mixes.

I can concentrate on the vocals more and less about the mix in the mastering process. All tracks are equal in frequency and volume already. The instrumentation in my opinion sounds more like it was recorded in a $100,000 studio. Having had the Korg PA2x for a few months and a Trtion as the center piece for years I welcome the slick sounding samples and styles of the Yamaha.

I bought an Arranger because I wanted to spend less time polishing mixes, keep them more consistent with each other (as one finds on a 12 track CD) and more time on vocals. Also because I like acoustic sounds and use them a lot and in my opinion ion no one does acoustic sounds better.

For live use I can't offer an opinion. My wife is the OMB live player in the family. She uses the Tyros for tracking certain parts then takes an 88 key piano and her guitar on gigs with a CD of certain tracks from the T3. Her live playing of a Roland RD700 piano and guitar erases any "too CD like" issues with Tyros. She might only use a Drum part in a song and kick left handed bass, Or she may use the style without the guitar and play that part live. She never uses just the Yamaha for a backing track like many OMBs. She will not take any less than 88 weighted keys with her. She doesn't care for synth keyboards. Weighted keys are important to her.

Its all about what one prefers. IF you want a more raw in your face sound the Yamaha is not a good choice (as there their acoustic pianos are not a good choice if you don;t like a bright piano out of the box)

Yamaha Arrangers and Motifs have a signature sound as does Roland and Korg. That's Yamaha is the only major Arranger maker that actually makes real pianos and samples their own instruments.

If you are a live player and want to carry only ONE keyboard the PA2x is the way to go. I cannot speak to the G70, never owned one.

If you like slick sounding polished CD mixes like you would find behind Adult Contemporary Artists the Yamaha delivers.

I wish I knew what people meant when they say that Yamaha arrangers sound "CD" like. Being a professional recording engineer and producer for over 25 years I have never once recorded anything on CD that sounds like what I've heard on Yamaha's arrangers. Thank God! Even their TOTL arrangers with the exception of a few SA instruments aren't even close in sound to live instrumentation that I've recorded. Yamaha's weak drum sounds have already been talked about here ad nauseam so certainly Yamaha hasn't seemed to hit the mark in that department either which is a shame given their excellent Custom Series Drum sets they manufacture.

To me a great "CD sound" is one that has been well engineered, has incredible dynamic range, and sounds organic, open, and airy. Good examples of such CD's are most anything released by GRP Records or recorded by George Massenburg. To me when someone says something has a polished sound I think of works by Trevor Horn, not the anemic over compressed sound of a Yamaha arranger. Trevor Horn's sounds is certainly a polished sound one would never achieve using factory sounds from any Yamaha arranger.

Call it whatever you want, but it is the sound that I love to hear come out of the speakers when I play.

Use whatever pleases YOUR ears.

Ian

Of course you wouldn't nor would any from the perspective of someone who spends their life dealing with minutia in the recording process on a recording using the best gear available. Average Joes like me can view it as polished and CD as well as many players in this and other forums. The sound is considered too "CD like" too "slick"m "machine like". That's not a compliment for many and a stated detriment to using the Tyros. For others it's exactly what they want!

Ordinary people just don't listen with the same "ears" as those who deal with this stuff in a very high detailed level everyday.

Besides that, most of what is coming out of major studios today is very highly compressed with little dynamic range to make them loud and in one's face for 3.5 minutes. Something akin to what the Waves L2 would do to a track.

I would add most people do not actually "listen" to music. They "hear" it as a back ground soundtrack to whatever else they are doing at the moment.

In that regard we are really splitting hairs when comparing Arranger keyboard tracks. One thing I have learned about record producers/engineers at every level. They don't agree or use the same processes and/or gear. They are all critics. That's why I focus solely on the average Joe Plumber when painting my musical canvases. It's amazing what people don't hear and what passes off as real. We get to use that to our advantage.

The gear is out there to make great sounding CD's at home. The demise of commercial Recording Studios are proof of that. Between that and regular folks lack of listening skills, we are fortunate our work is considered worthy at all. Who cares if Trevor Horn or David Foster likes it? Really? They are not our market. Joe and Joan Sixpack are and they are easy to please.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-26-2008).]

I think the difference is mostly, if you are a self taught, 'home' arranger player, you have never probably played in a real band. Most of what you have heard comes off of CD's and the like. So, you'll tend to prefer a keyboard that has this kind of dynamic.

If you ever played in a live band, though, you'll be used to something a bit more punchy and in your face. More raw, more difficult to ignore...

If you are doing primarily home recording and songwriting, the Yamaha's help make it easier to get 'close' to a CD sound with little technical recording skill, but once again, the more 'live' sounding arrangers, once compressed and limited correctly, tend to have, IMO, a better CD sound, due to them, just like a REAL CD, starting with a more live sound.

But I believe both 'sounds' have their place. If I was doing a restaurant 'background music' type of gig, I'd shoot for the Yamaha's. Very 'Muzak'-like, nothing jumps out, nothing disappears. VERY 'polished' (like Ensnareyou, it's not MY preference in 'polished', but it is ONE type ), very smooth.

If I were doing more in your face type gigs, I'd shoot for something else, a Roland, a Ketron, a Korg...

To be honest, I think it is fairly easy to hear these sonic differences from the factory demos themselves. If you can't tell the difference, bruno, then it doesn't really matter... and if you can, only your OWN opinion really matters, in this case, anyway!

I'll agree that much of the music that comes out today from major record labels is what I would call seriously over compressed with practically no dynamic range. To me that's just an audio engineer either not doing his/her job properly or being told what to do from some label executive who knows nothing about great sound. No engineer who truly loves audio would ever over compress the hell out of their track only to have it lose all the dynamic range they strived to achieve in the recording process in the first place. Compression and Limiters should be used as tools to help make a track sound better not worse.

I'm going to have to disagree with you that the demise of many commercial studios is because you can now make a great sounding CD from home. The demise has to do more with people being cheap (yes cheap) and presuming they can record a World Class sound out of their home studio with little to no knowledge of audio engineering. It doesn't matter if you have the best gear money can buy at home, if you don't know how to use it then it's pointless. I've seen it happen time and time again where I am hired to record a drum or vocal track for a home studio recordist because they weren't able to achieve the sound they wanted. It wasn't for lack of gear although many times that can be the problem, it was from lack of knowledge on how to track and mix an instrument.

In my opinion the recording industry went into a downward spiral and audio quality has suffered from the proliferation of home based studios with people at the helm who lack engineering skills. Just because you own Pro Tools, an instrument or two, and a microphone does not make one an audio engineer. Far from it!

On the positive side cheaper gear has brought recording to the masses and those that could never afford to record a CD before can now do so. While many of these CD's are recorded for vanity reasons, there will always be those few that take the time to learn their craft seriously, record a CD that can compete sonically with other major label releases, and may even achieve airplay and sell well.

I see this going bad fast!!

But I like Ians reply

The Korg PA series is very capable of doing soft restaurant ballads, big band, standards - everything. Just to clarify others' opinions.