And sorry, but GRP isn't exactly a mainstream label... jazz music for aficionados...

Trouble is, major labels ARE putting out pop, rock and urban music that sounds terrible. It's mixed by guys like Lord-Alge and the best of the best. But then it is handed off to mastering engineers who are TOLD to make it as loud as it possibly can go. You either do it, or they hire someone else.

It has got to the point that they (the mastering engineer) often request stems of the mix, so that they can mitigate the effects of slamming the compressors and limiters so hard it actually changes the mix! So much for a great mix!

And, you know the REALLY stupid thing about the whole thing? Most record buyers nowadays listen to much of their music from iTunes, either on an iPod, or streamed from the computer to their music systems. And you know wht iTunes does to all the tracks? Yep, you guessed it! It has a feature called 'Sound Check' which actually turns all the LOUD tracks down, so they are roughly the same volume as older CD's that are ripped into your collection!

So, you gain no practical benefit from having ruined the sound of the CD trying to get it as loud as possible...

It has gotten INSANE, and I'm sorry, but this is NOT primarily at the hands of bedroom studio owners (no matter how good or bad they may be). They have NO impact on what major Top 40 labels do to their CD's

Just TRY to listen to the new Metallica CD if you want to hear ear bleedingly bad sound at it's worse. Nobody did THAT one in their bedroom, I can tell you!

Jazz labels, classical, yes, there's a little sanity left in the world. But mainstream pop and rock has gone off the deep end...

Diki,

It is possible to make a track loud and not make it sound completely squashed. Of course it requires a high end compressor that doesn't impart excessive coloration to the mix and someone to use the compressor who won't get heavy handed with it. The trick is to try and school your client on what is available to do a great mix and hopefully they'll listen. Many times that's nearly impossible though. Most often once a mix is done it's completely out of the engineers, producers, and artists control. It doesn't take long for some label executive with a Deity complex to tell the Mastering engineer what to do and destroy a mix. After that its all downhill from there.

Well, here at the studio, we run our mastering chain Apogee PSX100>Manley Massive Passive ME>Manley Slam!ME>Waves L2 hardware.

If mastering in software, I am am a big fan of most of the UAD-1 Mastering Plug-ins, and a variety of other stuff, Waves, Sony, etc..

I think I know a LITTLE about mastering.

But the labels want hot, the artists want hot, and no-one is even listening on decent speakers at the labels, anymore. It's pathetic.

Rip the original Nightfly CD (widely recognized as one of the best recorded and engineered CD's ever) and some of the tracks don't even PEAK at -3db! Most pop tunes, even the quiet passages hit the limiter. Half the time, the intro is the perceived loudest part of the song, because the compressors and limiters haven't bit down yet!

I've been doing mastering for quite a while, and it's enough to make you weep!

Right or wrong, I just love reading this stuff from knowledgeable and talented members. It's the only way us layman can learn about studio sound, plug ins, post processing, mastering, etc. Thanks guys for the informative conversation; this is when SZ is at it's best!!

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Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Get the Yamaha if you want a keyboard to record nice CDs with great sounds (except for the drums of course which suck by any standard).

Get the Korg if you want amazing punch on the dance floor, though the right hand sounds are not that great.

I would say a Korg Pa2x and Motif Rack are the best combination.

Nice Mastering setup Diki. EveAnna Manley is a friend, she's a great person, and she makes some phenomenal tube gear. I really love the Massive Passive and Slam. I'm more a fan of great hardware rather than software mastering but the UAD and Waves are nice.

I always try to final mix as close as possible to what I envisioned so as to not need much tweaking when I master. When people bring me projects to master that's an entirely different story and I've heard some horribly mixed songs that I suggest the client remix before mastering. When a song is too far gone I'd rather send the client elsewhere as I don't want to put my name on a project I know can't sound good no matter how much you tweak it. You'd be amazed how many poorly tracked projects I've heard from supposed top notch engineers. I think most people also believe that if they do a poor mix they can fix it in mastering and that just isn't the case.

You are missing the point. The END USER doesn't care. The END USER is not that sophistacted. What sounds great to them may sound like crap to you. You may not pay for it with your educated ears. But Avg Joes are buying it anyway! There is no "industry standard" for the end user. They are listening to songs on MP3 @ 128bits.

Of course the "industry" will pan home grown work. But the bottom line is they sell their CDS whether crap[ or good and the end user is happy. I have never had someone return a CD because it does not sound like an industry standard CD.

Even as you say "pro" engineers and record companies are not adhering to "industry standards" which makes me wonder what they are. I certainly don't make a CD as good as can be done in a $100,000 studio. But I'm not making them for those people either. We make them for Joe and Joan who show up at a gig and pay ten bucks for a CD. Even with today's home gear its a hell of a lot better than it was 15 years ago. With mastering plug ins and all the SW help it's nearly fool proof. The avg person could not tell the difference. The average person is the market. Home Recordists like me don't worry about "industry standards". Im not going to spend $3000 for a Pre-Amp or $2000 for a mike when the Joe Meek and Rode NT2 does the Job. People really cannot hear the difference and more than that they don't EXPECT a personal CD to sound like a Steely Dan production.

I learned along time ago. I did not have to send a CD off to a mastering house. I would have sold the same number either way. But then again I was not sending them of to "industry professionals." Recording pros beat up everybody's work no matter who. You have DIKI telling you GRP is not all that great an example. You see its all relative.
IT's all about the end user. Theres the market. They will buy anything and listen to it on anything and if they like the tune nothing else matters.

It's all about the song. A great song can be recorded using "piano voice" on a Zoom H-4 and still be great. A bad song will never survive the best engineers. I don't call myself a "recording engineer" and I turn down any outside requests for recording other's songs. I did that once and would never do it again. So in my case anyway I support and ENCOURAGE Home Recordists. Always have. The lack of "industry standard" sound more than makes up for watching the clock while paying someone else. stsaying up until 4AM working on a tune that would have cost $25 an hour and up. People can make some pretty nice sounding stuff in their bedrooms. Especially to average Joes. I understand how professional engineers can find that a threat between that and the dumbing of the listener.

And the line between "industry standard" and Home Recording is pretty narrow nowadays.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-27-2008).]

Great post that is so true!

Anybody's bedroom produced, crappily engineered, poorly mastered CD signed to a major label and getting steady commercial radio airplay?

Didn't think so...

Just because your friends and fans at the local nursing home/watering hole don't return your CD doesn't mean it doesn't sound like poo... Or that, if it sounded better, they wouldn't like it MORE (and thousands more would like it, too)

Look, while we decry the state that things have gotten to, on the whole, most commercially recorded CD's still sound FAR better than most home productions. And sell in MUCH higher numbers. Maybe you DO just want a 'vanity' CD, to sell to the locals. Nothing wrong with that. Have done it myself.

But if you DO want to take it to the next level, sooner or later (sooner if you want to succeed!) you are going to HAVE to take the audio quality seriously. As bad as it can get, I have yet to hear anything posted here that even approached the quality of the BAD modern label productions..!

And the customers DO care... they are buying these CD's at Best Buy and WalMarts. Not your home produced stuff...

And, Ensnareyou, next time you run into EveAnna, thank her for making a couple of SUPERB pieces of kit.

One more time. Most of those I know producing their own work are not looking for a major record deal. IF they were they would go to a WELL KNOW enginner. Not some dude down the street with no track record of real recognized commercial work!! And pay for it. I wouldn't. Home Recordists don;t HAVE to equal commercial work and in some cases sound better if they are not all squashed with no dynamic range,

Succeeding to me is selling 50 CDs a week. Thats plenty. I'm too old to want nor have I ever sought a record deal and those deals suck nowadays anyway. Independants abound with limited recources.

Yes Joe buys CDs at Wal Mart but they also buy CDs on gigs. They don't have the same expectation but knowing the artist up close helps.

I don't do nursing homes so I cannot speak for that market. Perhaps you can share your excperiences in those venues. But I sold a ton of home grown CDs when we were on the road. My wife sells them locally.

I have not heard anything that has either on this site or any other site that I could compare to a Steely Dan recording either. But that is so subjective it means nothing.

But the point is even if you and I may be able to tell the difference on some level. But the average customer can not. I CHOOSE not to buy expensive gear becasue we won't sell any more CDs. Simple economics. People are buying the songs, They don't expect to hear a $100,000 recording and nor do I expect it from anyone with a home studio,

ANd I have met many "producer engineers" in my travels with their own "floating studios with Pro Tools and all the goodies. Very few of those "unrecognized" self procalimed experts and engineers have good things to say about another's work. There is a certain a snob appeal to the gear used as well. Gear means othing if one does not know how to use it. On the other hand a good producer can squeeze a great recording from cheap gear. Many who make want to earn a living as a Producer have to have a list of certain the gear for advertsing purposes becasue they won't be taken seriously unless they have the likes of Pro Tools d Avalon VT-737SP, Maney, Portico, Neve 80 Series Consoles, U87s.......on and on. Thousands more for 5% better syndrome

I will say it again. Its all about the song. A great recording will not save a terrible song. But a great song can jump out of a 4 track cassette tape.