I'm sorry, but I tend to look at the world of computer software first to see if a computer based arranger is going to be able to work.

AFAIK, there isn't even a single piece of software out there that can do realtime chord recognition of a wide choice of chord types, with a wide range of tempo selection, and a vast selection of different picking and strumming types. And that is with the benefit of sample streaming, etc., that is easy to do on a computer...

Everything I've tried or read about is limited in it's selection of chords it can recognize. Everything is limited in when you can change those chords (mid-strum, for instance). Everything is limited in how quickly it can load up an entire new set of samples. Not that that matters in the studio, but on a gig?

So, I'm sorry, but if you can't find an arranger technique in software, with vastly more powerful computers and HD I/O capabilities (SA has been around for quite a while with GIGA triggers, etc.), you are not going to find it in a more limited hardware arranger.

At least not in a form that will satisfy the experienced player. One Finger Chord player types, with their vastly smaller chord selection choices, may not notice the limitations. But anyone that knows what a 7b10 is will...

Sorry, but I don't see this as a viable technique for another two or three generation of imbedded arranger CPU's, and we haven't even STARTED to address the complexity and cost of putting these types of libraries together with any decent amount of chord choice. Every single style would need hundreds and hundreds of perfectly recorded loops to be as flexible as a CURRENT arranger like T3 or PA2X, with their sophisticated guitar voicing algorithms.

Those are not cheap to produce, my friends. Current guitar strumming VSTi's run into hundreds of dollars, and that is for only a few chord type choices and not that many different styles.

Ah, well, it was nice to dream, wasn't it?

We don't know yet what this ketron will be able to do, so lets just wait and see. Hopefully we won't put Ketron on the T3 bashing list.

My biggest concern at this point is the price, Ketron has alway made top end keyboards with outstanding styles and sounds.

Audya may be one of the best arrangers made or a $5000 +/- upgrade to SD5.

Time will tell.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-28-2008).]

Yes! Time will tell. But I hope the Audia can come close to the T3 And it will have the most inportand of all....76 keys.. have no experians of Ketron...have a T2 and a PA2X
like both.. use them in my gigs. But I hope to
use only one (Audia) see what it can do. Plays only live with styles together with a drummer and a bas-player muting the drum and bas parts. Have allso a Motif XS 7 but are gona sell it. Havent been able to integrate it to the rigg.
Sorry for the poor spelling. Swedisch

Tryggve

Diki,
Have you tried the latest live-styler SW arranger?
It's version 10 +.
It now even has direct interface facility to Ketron SD-2.
It plays Yamaha styles including ones with Mega voices (by substituting them).

Pretty impressive for sure. that ONE guy...not a big company did this much...

Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-28-2008).]

Lee, that's not a player of live audio loops, though, is it?

I see this type of things perhaps an indication I might be on the right track, here... a software version of a MIDI arranger.

The main thing is, hardly any of the computer guitar loop players are designed to be used live. They have all kinds of glitch problems trying to keep up with live input of the chords. But that doesn't really matter, when you can clean up the control track, or when the computer can see the chords coming (by reading ahead) and get itself ready.

Live, there is NONE of that possible. It MUST respond instantly, it must respond accurately, it must respond without glitches. How Ketron are going to pull this off, when software with far greater horsepower can't, is beyond me.

And STILL no word from the Ketron guys about the number of chord choice TYPES... AJ jumped in pretty quickly with the initial info, but this seems to be harder to elicit. And it is by FAR the most important stat, IMO...

Diki,
Yes, I see your point more clearly now...No LS does not use audio loops for style play.

But LS is a superb SW arranger and keeps getting better. Uses VSTI's etc. Now supprts direct use of Roland, Yamaha, Wersi, and Ketron styles!

The truth is all these current HW arranger mfg's could build a machine based on SW arranger funtions...but they will not unless the competition forces them too...so they can keep making tons of $$$ on the HW.

Some day it may shift...then they will make tons of $$$ on the SW versions for the arranger that runs them.

Actually the current arrangers all run on firmware which is really a SW arranger...it just isn't PC based.

An OS upgrade is nothing more than a new SW arranger load that runs only on their proprietary HW!!!

Lee

My primary issue with software arrangers, especially those that use VSTi's, is the issue of having enough horsepower and HD I/O when running at latencies that are in the hardware range.

My G70 feels exceptionally crisp and immediate. It can stack five stereo voices up on top of each other, and play very fast repeated chords without a trace of flamming. I honestly feel like it is down in the 1-1.5ms total latency area (I use VSTi's a lot, so I'm pretty used to dickin' with various latency settings).

Now, I'm sorry, but I have yet to see a computer music system capable of staying reliable at those kinds of latencies, trying to generate 128 voices or more in realtime, while at the same time, generating automatic accompaniment in crisp response to live input. Especially when you start to use the better, more complex VSTi's available, nowadays.

The door on a hardware arranger is always pegged at the polyphony maximum, at exactly the same latency as the slightest use of it. But software latencies and capabilities are dynamic. The heftier the VSTi, the lower the voice count, or the higher the latency. And this changes all the time! Some songs won't tax it, some VSTi's won't tax it, some will. But you won't know you've hit the wall until it comes crashing down,

That is something a live performer cannot accept. At least, not this one...

Diki,
Yes...very true...PC's get stonger every few monthes...so it will be better as time goes on...

I use LS with sound modules mstly..so all I do is MIDI oriented..works very fast and very reliable.
Lee

I'm going out a limb here and predict that Ketron WILL get it right. They have been working on it too long, and have not shipped it yet because they DO want to get it right.
If it incorporates the features of Midjay and SD5, then it will be hard to beat. The audio style loop thing will be icing on the cake, to whatever extent it is developed.
DonM

I'm not sure I have your faith. Any time a 'soon to be released' product gets delayed for a couple of years, you can be sure that more than just minor fixes are necessary...

And, WITHOUT that 'live loop' technology working up to our fevered expectations, it SURE ain't going to be worth that $5000+ price tag they are floating

Like I said, the deafening silence about the choices of chords available in 'live loop' mode is very telling, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-28-2008).]