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#247149 - 11/12/08 12:43 PM
Re: Korg Pa series Fill in issue better explained ... with examples.
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14247
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by Nick G: Diki - you need to go and try one for yourself before making solid opinions / judgments about Korg and their keyboards...
Nick Nick, you need to ask me first if I HAVEN'T played one before you jump to that conclusion (mind you, you are not alone!)... Yes, I've played a PA1Xpro, heard it there occasionally, and users of PA2Xpro's have remarked than nothing has changed. Good enough for you? (probably not ) But, rather than pile on MY back, why not interrogate those owners like leeboy who actually OWN one and report the problem, or AJ, who used one to make the examples? Perhaps it would just be harder to play the same game with someone that owns one? Look, we all miss a lot of things while we are playing. Sometimes just concentrating hard enough to get the chords and melody correct takes a large part of our thoughts. Why not record yourself play, and see if you can hear the glitches afterwards..? To be honest, trying to dismiss AJ's examples as a corrupt OS strikes me as desperation, or at least fishing furiously for ANYTHING to deny the proven... Please, guys, why not stick to beating up on fellow owners that hear the problem as well as I can... At least you have less assumptions to get wrong...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#247150 - 11/12/08 01:17 PM
Re: Korg Pa series Fill in issue better explained ... with examples.
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14247
Loc: NW Florida
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And yes, Tommy, I still believe you are on the right track...
I still personally think that the issue is FAR more a style programming and lack of fills issue than anything in the OS. Simply the fact that it is not noticed on many styles on the newer Korg's points to Korg making more of an effort to ensure their style makers don't try to make the fills so different from the variations, but the lack of fills (although there are three, the vast majority of styles use one as a break/fill, so you really only have two) is the primary culprit...
There is just NO WAY you can get two fills to be smooth on four Variations, especially as varied as Korg often make the variations. I've already said that I think that, were Roland or Yamaha to still only have two on their current line-up, you would have the same problems (and can hear it on translated styles from Korg).
But Roland have seven, Yamaha six (real fills, that is). You REALLY need twelve for there to be a one to one on possible routes, but six or seven mitigates the problem to the point of unnoticeability (for the most part). This, I feel, is all Korg need to do to fix the problem. As long as the BEGINNING of a fill matches fairly closely the variation it comes from, you don't hear 'jumps' or 'glitches'. But when it struggles in this area, you can't help but notice it.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#247153 - 11/12/08 11:19 PM
Re: Korg Pa series Fill in issue better explained ... with examples.
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1161
Loc: Oradea, RO
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Originally posted by leeboy: Nick G, Tommy F, I sure don't understnd why you don't hear it. the other day, my wife and i were watching a movie on tv. after a while, due to the bad digital sync between video and audio, the voice of the characters was coming in with a lag. i said "look, it's going unsync" and my wife's reply was "what do you mean? i see nothing wrong" it took another 15 minutes, while the unsync lag was increasing, until she finally noticed what i meant. could be that for some of us, these little glitches (because they are just small unsyncs, few miliseconds of delays in timing, little bit too abrupt coming-in) are just passing unnoticed? to me, i KNOW i had this problem (the relative volume of fills is indeed another issue, a different one) with smoothness of fills with my PA50. i noticed it when trying PA800 and PA2X. i notice it whenever, where ever occurs. but maybe to some of us, again, it just passes unnoticed, somehow. if that's the case, i can understand very well why there are some very defensive aproaches here. and that only increses the efforts from the other side to prove the obvious. i think korg could solve this simply by fixing it! hehe
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Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.
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#247155 - 11/13/08 12:37 AM
Re: Korg Pa series Fill in issue better explained ... with examples.
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14247
Loc: NW Florida
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Basically, if you hit on the 'one' (but NEVER fractionally late) or on the 'four' (or later) on a Korg, you don't actually get any glitches, because you are doing the ONE thing that the Korg wants to see... On the 'four' it waits till the 'one' to bring in the fill, and as long as you don't hit the 'one' late, that triggers the fill with no overlap with the previous bar (which is what everyone is hearing). But many use fills either less precisely, or more often, partially. In other words, fills can be used for MUCH more than simply triggering the entire fill. Hit the fill on the 'two' or the 'three', or even the 'four' (but not late into it) and you get what is called a 'pickup' rather than a fill, a 'lift' in feel without the drama of an entire bar's fill. This is a VERY common drummer technique. Now, I know some of the Korg fans are going to chime in here about the Korg's extra long variations, that have pickups at four bar boundaries, and this is all well and good. BUT... some songs don't have regular 8 bar repeated sections, and sometimes you need a pickup on other bars. THIS is what the Korg has a problem with, depending on the style. You simply can't do your own pickups without things getting unpredictable. Bend what YOU want to do to what the Korg will let you, and all is fine, but personally, I'd rather the arranger do what I want than the other way around...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#247157 - 11/13/08 04:09 AM
Re: Korg Pa series Fill in issue better explained ... with examples.
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1161
Loc: Oradea, RO
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look, there might be more problems with korg styles than we realize. rob is speaking about an issue first occured after introduction of guitar mode. ok, but the styles glitches i experienced were with PA50, LONG BEFORE guitar mode.
i believe it's simply a matter of how the OS knows to commute from variation pattern to fill pattern and back. it seems there are situations when this change between different patterns simply does not happen smoothly, probably because of some "markers" that work inaccurately.
the problem i hear first happen with pa series. and it seems to be permanent, thru all of the updates and new models ever since.
_________________________
Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.
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