Since many have requested what exactly goes on when the Fill In on the Korg Pa series is pressed at the 'wrong time' (up-beat or about 0.75 secs. after the down beat), I decided to show some examples for you to hear for yourself.

The files are labeled accordingly with the style name taken from the Pa2XPro. So far (when going through the list), over 40 styles have this problem (testing not completed yet so there could be more), but I decided to show about 6 for now.


* xxx-GOOD.mp3 - The fill in was pressed on the DOWN BEAT (at the right time).

* xxx-BAD.mp3 - The fill in or break was pressed on the UP BEAT (slightly after the down beat was heard). What you hear is actually what appears to be a 'Midi delay/retrigger' when the fill or break is pressed and not an actual Volume/Effects change (correction from my previous post).

Some may not agree, but the files labeled with xxx-BAD.mp3 should NOT be allowed regardless of Fill setting(Fill=Immediate or Fill=Delayed) or regardless of when the Fill in or Break button is pressed - especially for a machine being used live - just my opinion. This was not an issue with the i-series I believe.

Thanks,

AJ

Here is the link:- http://www.mediafire.com/folder/8e7bfaeb848250d1ab1eab3e9fa335caded6180a1493ad49

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-07-2008).]

The Mediafire site doesn't play well with my Mac, just hangs on 'Loading files'.

Any chance of MP3-ing these, and putting them up at Korgforums, or somewhere like that? If they are small-ish (timing issues will be as easily heard with an mp3 as a .wav), roland-arranger.com would be OK, too...

It LONG past time this was quantified and acknowledged, and even fixed...

Diki,

Check your mail....

AJ.,
Thanks for explaining with an example...

Now I will explain a little more of the flexibility and solution if you want it to work differently.
And as AJ said only some styles have any issue with partial fills.

The styles you used as an example in fact do work that way and there is probably others. I change them if I want to as I run into them...some I leave alone. It depends on the style and how the fill sounds...sometime I like to fill ANYTIME, others don't always sound good at just any beat so I change them.

I actaully just timed it...it takes about 6 seconds to do it and it is very simple.

1) Be sure in media mode that factory styles is UNLOCKED...that way you can change them. YES, all factory styles can be changes anytime you want, then re-saved to the original or a new one...nice feaure!

2) Select the style you want to change.
3) Press Record and select change current style
4) When the scren pops up select the Cue Tab at the bottem.
5) Select fill 2 or fill 2 as the CV
6) Change the Cue mode to NEXT MEASURE, FIRST MEASURE
7) Press Top corner for the write pulldown menu and select write style, press OK.
8) Exit from record mode.

All done..now the fills will not come in on the third beat...which is waht causes the issue AJ pointed out.

It is really neat as you can press fill 1 or 2 at either the first beat OR second and get a fill...(that sounds fine) but if you press it on the 3rd or 4th it will wait until the next measure to start the fill.

So, you can have it anyway you want BY STYLE, Immediate (where it sounds OK to you) or like Yamaha on the first beat of next measure.

Lee

I found the old i series extremely poor in comparison to the new 800. I always loved the i series sounds and styles, but could never tolerate the terrible glitches.

I think each board may have its own character, because some of the competitive (current) brands on the market that I tried were absolutely terrible when it came to style glitches.

I'd say Yamaha is the smoothest, followed by Korg...the rest - way behind.

Incredible! How can Korg allow this to happen year after year after year on their arranger products??... Until they do something about it I will NOT be getting any of their arranger gear - EVER! What an embarrassment a person could make of themselves on stage and this type of glitch occurs!

No thanks Korg. Fix it! Then we'll talk.. maybe.

Best,
Mike

I actually find the timing of this thread from AJ rather interesting, especially as its highlighting a quirk of a keyboard to other arranger players (looking at possible future Audya sales perhaps???)

Nothing like trying to highlight failings of one keyboard when you are about to launch your own

Or am I just being too cynical?

Dennis

PS: And I think the "As many have requested......", should be more like "As a few have commented on..." to be totally fair.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-07-2008).]

leeboy just posted a very simple and quick way to edit the fill so that it is smooth (if that fill is not already smooth). Why would anyone go on stage without rehearsing the songs they are going to play ? the fills will not come in unexpectedly if you know they styles that you commonly use. This should not be a deal breaker unless the keyboard simply is not your cup of tea. And thats cool , there are plenty of other keyboards out there. I bought my Pa1x second hand so someone must have already done this to my board which is why i have never had any timing issues. This was a useful post from AJ and i dont think it was done to boost sales of the Audya as this instrument does not look like it is anywhere near being launched in the immediate future.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 11-07-2008).]

leeboy's solution does provide a temporal fix, because, with this option activated, you now cannot have the fill on the 3rd or 4th bar of the measure (as can be done on the other manufacturer's keyboard) since the Pa now waits until the next measure to activate the fill.

Also, this solution above doesn't prevent the 'midi glitch' from occuring when the fill/break is pressed on the 1st or 2nd bar of the measure ... it only prevents the fill from coming in on the 3rd or 4th.

On the Yamaha or Ketron arrangers, depending on when you press a fill/break (within a measure), it is activated on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th bar (for a 4/4 style let's say). Depending on how far into the measure you press the fill, the unit actually plays some of the variation it's coming from and some of the fill that was requested. The complete fill is only played if the fill-in button is pressed on the first bar of the measure. So, if a fill/break is pressed 2 bars into a measure, they play only the last 2 bars of the fill - they don't try and play the fill from the first fill bar

REAL SOLUTION (Mine that is).
The following suggestion assumes a 4/4 style.
* Have markers within the fill (e.g for a one measure fill, have 16 markers.
* Depending on when the fill is pressed, play fill only from the next marked point 'till end (this eliminates the midi hanging notes generated by pressing the fill between marker points).
* Until that marker point is reached, continue playing the current variation.

Just my suggested fix.

Thanks

AJ

PS: If anyone needs the C++ programming codes for this, I'd be willing to supply them.

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-08-2008).]

This is the kind of response that bothers me Bad press and gossip do undeserving harm to a product that is absolutely the BEST keyboard on the market. Anyone can glitch a style if tried hard enough. Even with Yamaha and as smooth as they are, I had styles I just couldn't work with. I won't bad mouth other products here, but if you haven't had the joy of playing an 800/2X, then you've really missed out - it is an incredible tool for live and studio work. I'm glad I'm the only one in my area that uses it. Believe me, the audience simply raves about this board and I have more work from my current act then I did with my last setup. It's the total package that counts....