looks like this weekend I will be purchasing a KORG PA 800! I want to clear soemthing up before I go and buy it and then regret it in the short term...

I know that Korg are very rewarding to their customers and release FREE OS feature upgrades which is GREAT but will the actual KORG PA 800 keyboard be replced soon by another 61 key PA instrument?

I prefer the PA 800 over the 2X becuase I only want a 61 key arranger plus I like the on board speakers! very handy when taking the keyboard to a relative or friends house to perform with in a single room environment.

I just dont want to buy the PA 800 and then early next year a much nicer looking board with sliders and extra features is released?

how many future models will the Korg PA 800's OS be upgradable too?

thanks!

Nick

Nobody can know for sure, but since both Pa800 and Pa2X has been very succesful in their main markets I doubt that Korg would change their high end arranger lineup in the near future. The Pa800 is the succesor of the also very succesful Pa80 which was produced in 7 years (2000-2006). Read more here:
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/extra/korgstory.html?en

Kind regards,
Tommy

Nick,

I second what Tommy said. The Pa800 has the latest generation Korg synth/sound engine and I think Korg will build on that success and recoup R&D costs.

I don't see another sound engine on the horizon for now, so it looks like the PA series won't be updated for a while.

but of course anything can happen in this crazy wacky arranger world!! I'd go for it. What do you have to lose?? It's a great board.


------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

I wouldn't think that Korg would release another arranger soon, especially with the release of the forthcoming OS upgrade. Just my thoughts, no crystal ball here

I'd wait for the upcoming NAMM show in January there will be many surprises for sure

My personal opinion only! Korg will stay with the current high end for a while..There is memory still available and I personally think you will see several more OS upgrades...the only reason they stopped doing upgrades to PA1XPRO was they finally ran out of resourses(memory).

As long as you hae actually spent a lot of time playing the PA800 AND you like the styles, and the way the intros/fills/variations/endings work I think you will be happy with it. That area is a little smoother with Yamaha, but once you get accustomed to it it's OK and even has some advantages.

Lee

Is there still a problem with fills intros endings lee? or has the NEW OS corrected it....it didn't bother my playing at all with my Pa800....in fact the Korg styles were more refreshing, creative & less repetitive to my ears.

Still the same issues with the fills. You must press them on the 'down-beat' otherwise you hear drastic volume/effects changes on many styles - not all.

Thanx AJ for the info.....that stinks....doesn't Korg hear these things & why aren't they addressing them with a fix its quite obvious.

Baloney -

The fills, intros, endings and break are fine! 'Not all' is an incorrect assessment - 'very very few' is is better statement.

Zuki someone has to be right here?....


which is it!!?

Donny, very few would be a better explanation.

Well at least in my experience anyway, (and Zuki's obviously).

Truth is if this were the issue that has been implied, it would be all over the Korg forums, as a major "must-do" update for Korg.

I believe most if not all the Korg forum members are quite silent about this supposed "issue", and they too seem to have no problems.

Also you can hit the fill in the middle of the bar to get a simple 2 beat fill if you want, and as you would also know, you can double hit the fill to have it repeat, same with the intros and the break button. the last one (break) I found very useful at times, particularly with those breaks that just have a stab on the first beat.

So a claim that you HAVE to hit fills only on the downbeat is also erroneous.

Dennis

OK, Boys...here is the facts.

1) There is some styles that they PURPOSELY programmed that on fill 2 you get a loud fill to either the same Var or the new one you select after the fill. You don't have to use it. Fill 1 is typically a soft fill.
Not all styles have the loud fill. It's ok for some music, not cool for others...but you can use fill 1

2) In the style control parms (page 119 of the manual)for when either you make your own style OR modify a factory style(YES, you can overwrite a factory style IF the lock is off) there is an option for WHEN the fill comes in...on the 1st beat or immediate. It is called Cue Mode. Your choice by fill per style.

Default I believe on most factory styles is immediate, that way you can get a partial fill if you want.

Some of the fills (SOME) do sound poor if you fill in the middle of a measure, others do not. You need to check to see how a particuar style fill sounds before using it live (Duh). If you don't like it working that way...you can change it and re-save it.

Since there is some of these things...and I had a T2 before...the Yamaha style system is in a way smoother OVERALL. BUT, if you know what your doing the Korg system is fine. It is different than the T2/T3 so it takes a little open minded learning.

I would prefer a GLOBAL menu option to be able to make them all start at first beat, but I am only one guy.

Oh, by the way all intos, Vars, and endings aways start at the meaxt measure (beat 1). So the fills is always the buggaboo if any.

3) Also, one other thing on the Korg. There is no auto fill. So if you are in let's say Var B and you go to Var C it goes to Var c on the next measure. There is no autofill to Var C. But, If you want a fill to Var C then you hit fill (1,2,3) and then Var C button. Then you get a fill to Var C.
A plus is you select the actual fill not the keyboard. So it is more flexible...but you have to do the fill yourself.
A plus is you don't have to do a fill at all.
I wish it had a autofill OPTION on a menue, so you could get autofill if you want, and you could select on that menu which fill to use.

I hope this all helps a little?

And it re-itterates...there is no perfect arranger...they are different.
Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 11-04-2008).]

Hi,
if a player has problems hitting a fill at the correct time, you just go into style record mode, choose the fill causing the problem, change Cue 2 from "immediate" to " next measure, first measure". Write to user style.
Doesn't matter when you hit the fill then, it won't trigger till the begginning of the next bar, no glitches if you hit the fill at the wrong time.

Personally haven't really had any hassles with the fills.

best wishes
Rikki

Thats too bad that Korg still has that problem with the fill-ins. When I had the Pa80 that was a big problem. Also most stop hitting the fill-in buttons because of the down beat or they tend to be long and out of sync. I don't remember them having that problem on the older models i3, ix300,??



[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-04-2008).]

Two fills and a break fill were fine in the days of two variation arrangers. Things, however, have moved on...

Yamaha have six and a break fill, Roland have seven and a break/mute (not as good as a break/fill, IMO). But the truth is, if you had a fill for each possible transition, you would need 16 (including fill-to -same, 12 if you don't have one of those). So things are far from perfect, but as anyone that has played a conversion style from a Korg on a Yammie or Roland, just having the two fills sounds VERY strange... Kind of a trip back in time.

Leeboy has nailed it, as far as tracking the trouble down... It's all about PARTIAL fills. Every arranger can do partial fills. You hit the fill button on the two or the three, you get a partial fill, or 'pick-up' as a drummer would call it. But for a pick-up to work, it has to blend reasonably smoothly with the bar that it is PART OF...

And a two fill system only blends in with HALF of the available Variations. So two of your variations, you'd better NOT ask for a pick-up. Trouble is, as the Korg owners point out, not all styles suffer equally (depending, I guess, on how much variation there is from variation to variation ). So it's a minefield, with no warning signs...

And also, I'm sorry, but the universal way of triggering fills has been, almost since arrangers came out, that the fill triggers IMMEDIATELY, for precisely the reason of giving the player the control of whether it is a full bar fill, or half bar pick-up. So offering the band-aid of setting your fills to have to be called up in advance is a very poor solution, and one that few players, used to having instant-on for fills, will be comfortable using.

It is LONG past time for Korg to step into the 21st century with this, one of the last arranger features that it's competitors completely outshine. They made considerable efforts to provide an OS that offers SA-type functionality. But, to be honest, this lack of fills is a FAR more primary shortcoming...

It is counterproductive for Korg users to keep 'defending' this flaw. It'll get fixed a LOT faster if you make noise about it and quit downplaying it's significance. And then there'll be NOTHING left for the rest to crow about!

thanks for the replies on this topic,

when i played on the PA 800 in the shop, i pretty much went through all the styles that are important to me and i was 100% satisfied with the fills. I never once noticed any glitches or issues and i was actually looking for it because I have heard of people mentioning on this forum about Korg being infamous for its non-smooth fills / breaks.

but like i said, i was completely satisfied and didnt notice any issues with the styles that were important to me.

cheers,
Nick

Do you trigger fills a bar in advance, or do you often do the 'pick-up' type where you wait until the two or the three?

I am still confused about the reported timing problems on a few styles. Does this happen because of a large number of Tone changes and parameter changes glitch the start of the fill if they are poorly matched? Do PA arrangers have glitch-less patch changes, or does the sound cutoff if you change from one tone to another on the same channel? I know my Triton cuts off....

Or is it because of the wrong mode being employed? (don't Korg's have a mode that jumps to beat 1 of a fill the second you hit the fill, regardless of where you are in the bar when you hit it? handy for Middle easter non regular time signatures...). That might cause the unwary to assume it's a fault with the arranger, when it might simply be a fault in the style.

You would have thought, by now, that someone would have tracked the issue down... mind you with all the owners (or most, at least) so hell-bent on denying the issue even exists, it must be tough to make yourself try to track down a problem you are reticent to even acknowledge...

Nick G,
Yes, I agree i's not a showstopper at all...

BUT DIKI, I also agree with you that it needs attention and an upgrade.

All they have to do is provide a auto fill for each Variation, and the Fill 1,2,3/break can still be used as special fills/breaks in addition to the auto fills (like Yamaha)

If EVERYONE would scream about it it would be changed. One reason I think it is ignored is if I understand correctly...over in the mid-east (a large market for Korg) some/lots of folks don't even use the styles/fills...their left hand is too busy on the joystick using pitch bend/??

Still there is a lot of owners n other paces that would like it to work a little smoother at times.

There is so many things I like about the PA...(like 76 great keys) it's not a show stopper for me.

Diki, Oh, it's not a minefield..but you need to know what styles/fills to use based on the sound you want. Most are really fine. But yes once in a while a fill does not work too well with a particuar VAR.


Lee

I guess I do both really.. most of the time i like to hit the fill button right at the start of the bar so i get the full 4 beat fill, but there are other times were i might hit it half way just for the quick fill.

Diki, I don't think it's a case of owners denying or confirming anything.

I think it's a case of it either a.doesn't affect them, with what they are doing or how they are using the keyboard,(probably the majority) OR b. they don't really care, probably mostly because of a.

Now I don't own a Korg anymore as my issues with it were NOT fills related...

But if the wonderful and greatly espoused FREE update, that even you were praising, is anything to go by, then it doesn't matter how many time users raise an issue on the forums, the only upgrades are going to be what Korg think will win buyers from other brands.

Look carefully at the Korg forum and at the few wishlist threads and then look at the update and how many of those wishlist items were included... I can tell you, NONE.

No-one, at least as far as my recollection goes, asked for DNC sounds, nor the ability to read music scores.

My point being that no matter how loud and long you crow about a perceived deficiency, it won't make one bit of difference to the people who are programming the updates...

They get their orders from the marketing execs who get theirs from those above them.

And it is ALL about selling more units than their competitor. I would have assumed you knew all of this already.

Dennis

Well, I think they'll sell a lot more if Yamaha and Roland, Ketron, etc., users can come over from their familiar arrangers, and NOT have to deal with this issue, no matter HOW seldom it comes up.

And please... How can a timing glitch NOT be a serious issue? Not too many three legged dancers out there! If there were EVER an issue with timing on a Roland, I would not own one. I will never own any arranger that I have to risk (no matter how slight the risk) destroying a groove every time I go to hit a fill.

Maybe Korg's sales division should ponder THAT...

They definitely pondered the risk of not competing head to head with Yamaha on the SA triggering issue. Perhaps they should ponder the issue of the lack of fills, next...

its NOT a serious issue because it honestly is hardly noticeable...

and Please...It's your opinion (a Roland owner)that its a SERIOUS issue, but to people who own the actual keyboard, have actually played a PA800 and myself as a potential Korg customer its far from a show stopper...



[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 11-04-2008).]

Diki,
Yep, your right...and they just don't do anything to fix it...probably because they don't think it's broke!

The darn problem is...they already sell MORE arrangers than any competitor...LOTS goes to Middle-East.

It will take a buch of distributors to complain to Korg...not us users so much. They do listen to us to an extent...but like you said, they listen to marketing more.

Maybe after this BIG upgrade to get some features for competative reasons is put to bed...we can get some functions we need changed?
We'll see.

Meanwhile..I have not ruled out a T3.
Lee

It's amazing how noticed this 'hardly noticeable' problem has been...

I don't want 'hardly noticeable'. I want 'unnoticeable'

Just as well Diki you own a wonderful Roland G70

This doesn't mean my G70 doesn't have problems... Just that other people, should they want whatever "hardly noticeable' problems to become 'unnoticeable' would be well advised (as I have) to publicly acknowledge the problem....

The other nice thing on the Korg is when you press the FILL-BREAK key more than once, it will continue to BREAK until you press it again.

This is great if you want to talk to the audience during a song or if there is a long break in the song.

Again, very minor glitches (very). I found extreme glitches in the G70 and SD-5 (both far worse) as I tried to work songs out. Yamaha is surely smooth, but not perfect!

Nick, when you get the board, you'll be surprised at the tremendous opportunities there are in style play

Hi,
actually I like the korg fill setup. As Al mentioned if you tap it more than once, it will keep repeating.
Makes a fill part useable as a 5th variation in a user style. A fill part can be up to 32 bars long.

best wishes
Rikki

The Korg just seems to have a lot of additional features that the Yamaha OS has.

I do still think the total layout of the Yamaha is more user friendly and more simple but then again im sure what ever instrument you use, you get use to so maybe in time i will find the Korg extremely easy...

I cant wait to get my Korg!!!

Nick G,
Once you get some experience on the Korg...you will see a wealth of features and flexibility.

I have had both, both have advantages...but the Korg is NOT hard to use and IF you read the manual, and I mean read it cover to cover...you wil see lots of cool capabilities...very PRO level!

You could download it right now and resd it??

And the 76 key keybed of the PA2XPRO is truely great feel and response. I don't know abut the PA800, but I heard the keybed is very nice too. I know you wanted 61 keys.

Lee



[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 11-05-2008).]

Hi Nick,
something additional that might be worth considering is the EC5 pedal. 5 foot switches that can be programmed to trigger fills, variations, all sorts of stuff. Frees up the hands.

Don't know if you're into style programming? but guitar mode is brilliant for creating guitar tracks.
A single note can create strums , up, down, etc , even inserts fret noises automatically.

Korg also supports multiple time signatures ie you can have a 3/4 variation, a 4/4 variation & multiple tempo's in the same style. Great for medley type style.

Copy function is great. You can even copy a multipad into a style track & vice versa, create a multipad from style tracks.

There are 14 settings for fills as to what you want them to do ie fill 1 goes to v1 or v2 or a self fill etc etc . You can basically set them up for a style.

There's a drum remap function, that alters the drum track in a style ie you may have bass, snare, hihats etc playing, you choose one of the remap options & instead you'll have bass, rimshot & hihats playing.
Just alters the style slightly.

It's a pretty amazing keyboard.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki,

This is something I would love to see on the Yamaha arrangers...as it is, we can do it with a program by Jørgen Sørensen, but it would be nice to have it right on the instrument.

Does the PA800 support half bar fills? What about the PA2XPRO?

That's another very handy feature, which I believe is already on the Roland arrangers....great for tunes with a 2/4 measure in a 4/4 time signature.

Ian

Hi Ian,
I know, where would we be without Jorgen's program's. I never really got round to using that one for my psr. A lot of the time I actually used One Man Band with my Clavinova. OMB also supported multiple time signatures.

You've lost me on the half bar fills??
If it's something that can be done by having a different time signature & tempo to the rest of the style, then yes , I think it could be created as part of a user style.? But if you're talking about a dedicated function, then , not as far as I'm aware.


best wishes
Rikki
Rikki

Ian
Yes...you can start the fill anytime in the bar...IF the setting for the fills CUE MODE it set to immdiate. Simple to change if needed. If CUE MODE is set to next bar, then no matter where you hit the fill key...it starts fresh on the next bar.

The only real bugaboo is that there is not a spcificfill for each VAR...so on some styles the fill sounds better on only some VARS vs Yamaha has a fill (autofill) on each VAR...but, if I understand correctly it always starts at the next bar, so you really don't have just a fill by itself that can be used anywhere in the bar.

Both have advantages and disadvantages IMHO.

Lee

Hi Lee and Rikki,

Here is what I mean for half bar fill...this is taken from the G70 manual Pg.63.

"Half Bar on Fill In—The ASSIGN SW button allows you
to switch the Half Bar function on and off. Certain pop
songs in 4/4 contain bars that only last two beats. The
usual place for such a bar is between the first and the
second verse. Another favorite position for “halved” bars
is at the end of a chorus or the bridge. Your G-70 allows
you to faithfully reproduce these “anomalies” using this
function. This does not change Style playback right
away. Only when a Fill-In starts will the Half Bar function
be activated and play half the number of beats of
the fill you selected."

Does Korg have this feature on PA-series?

Ian

The immediate function on Korg's is just that... immediate. So you MUST hit the fill button with millisecond accuracy to not destroy the groove. Few can even play the keyboard with that degree of precision, yet alone leap off the keyboard, rush over to a fill button, hit it precisely on the beat and rush back to playing the next chord...

But perhaps those that report timing issues on some Korg styles have those styles set to 'immediate' and don't know it?

Hi Ian,
not aware of such a function on the korg.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ianmcnll:
[B]Hi Lee and Rikki,

Team,

Just as they say "seeing is believing", this issue will be best explained by an example, so I will make an example of a style where ...
* User plays in Variation A.
* User presses fill on down-beat - Pa series will react well. (OK).
* User presses fill on up-beat (about .75 of a second after the down beat). You will then 'hear' how the fill appears to 'retrigger' the style. You will also hear how this could throw off someone on the dance floor. This situation (so far) cannot be replicated on Yamaha, Korg or Ketron (unless you press the retrigger/restart button) ~ regardless of when/where you press the fill, and regardless of style setting.

That being said, I agree ... all the other manufactures do have product issues of their own too (some more major to others than some). It boils down to which issues the end-user is capeable of 'living' with.

Thanks,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-06-2008).]

Team,

Here you go. The files are labeled accordingly with the style name taken from the Pa2XPro.


* xxx-GOOD.wav - The fill in was pressed on the DOWN BEAT (at the right time).

* xxx-BAD.wav - The fill in was pressed on the UP BEAT (slightly after the down beat was heard). What you hear is actually what appears to be a 'Midi delay' when the fill is pressed and not an actual Volume/Effects change (correction from my previous post).

Some may not agree, but the files labeled with xxx-BAD.wav should NOT be allowed to occur regardless of keyboard settings or when pressed (Fill=Immediate or Fill=Delayed) especially for a machine being used live - just my opinion.

Thanks,

AJ

Here is the link:- http://www.mediafire.com/folder/8e7bfaeb848250d1ab1eab3e9fa335caded6180a1493ad49

Hi Diki,
I think the default setting for fills & breaks is the "Immediate" setting in the onboard styles ( or at least the ones I've checked).
I've altered the setting on the odd style that might cause me a problem. I do use the EC5 pedal to trigger fills, which saves having to press with my finger.
best wishes
Rikki

Also...see A.J's post of example for a simple solution...
Lee