Ian, for me and my G70, Roland don't HAVE to give a damn. I already 'get it'. Roland's service in the US is fine, no problems there, it's just their marketing and availability that sucks. Hence the lack of awareness of these great arrangers. At least RolandUS don't make them, so they can only screw up the market, not the product!

Personally, buying the same arranger as everyone else puts up a red flag for me. I don't WANT to sound like everyone else, especially as I don't want to sound like a 'home' keyboard. Roland voice their arrangers primarily for pros, with punchy, live sounding drums and clear, easy to play with (rather than play ON, which is how I feel about Yamaha) styles.

What RolandUS does with their market is of no concern to me. I already HAVE the best arranger for my needs. It only makes it a bit harder to explain to those that don't yet 'get it'...

What's the best selling car in the world? Is it the 'best car in the world'? Not by a LONG shot. So what do you want to buy? The best SELLING arranger, or the 'best' arranger? Looking at sales stats don't tell you a damn thing other than the power of marketing. Me, I'm a musician, not a salesman

I'll let my EARS decide, not some sales chart...

You are partially right Diki, but generally, the better selling cars are the best...e.g.Toyota Corolla.

Something that doesn't meet consumer standards inevitably fails....i.e. General Motors.

Of course you don't want to sound like everyone else...understandable...but unless you work your G70 your way, your keyboard will sound like every other G70...same goes for any keyboard.

My point is I'd rather have good product support, and anyone buying today would/should expect the same...it is comforting to a new user(as well as long term )to know there is good 3rd party support.

You made the quote about Roland, and I only took you at your word, as would anyone else reading your statement.

Yamaha sells well to the church market in my region because of it's "finished" sound....not one church in my area uses a Roland arranger, but there are several using Tyros.

Like you, they let their ears decide.

Ian






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-22-2008).]

The Makeup and Cover Tools makes it a snap to make my G70 sound unique. Change a snare drum here, a kick there, revoice for a more electronic sound ensemble with one button press, easily change style part sounds or SMF's. There's only one way to make a G70 sound like any other G70...

Don't do anything to it at all

"Personally, buying the same arranger as everyone else puts up a red flag for me. I don't WANT to sound like everyone else"
Diki,
This sounds like the buyer that comes into my store and sees a wall of Fender Stratocaster guitars and says "I don't want one of those Strats, everyone plays those" and I say to them "that's because players love the sound, feel, etc. and want what the Strat offers. If this wasn't the case, so many musicians would choose other brands and models".
I also want to respond to my original post in stating that what Roland E80's do are quite good, as is the Tyros3, but the Yamaha has some extra things, as does the Roland (make up tools, etc.) that might be appreciated by the end user.
I also want to mention that the Yamaha is made in Japan and the Roland is made in Italy and as for me, I would prefer the model made in Japan for their reputation for top manufacturing in almost every kind of item they make. Most Yamaha products are now made in either China or Indonesia. Don't get me in trouble here ..........Italian manufacturing is good, but I think we all know here the reputation of things made in Japan.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Japan, Italy who cares...None of this means anything unless your a Good player to make it sound good on whatever your performing with with the talent you possess..why does everyone assume the keyboard will make you sound better?

George, IF ONLY it were as easy to make an electronic keyboard sound as different as a guitarist can make even a Strat sound!

Mind you, what amp you use (or even what model of Strat) can make a huge difference, and then there's the player's technique (not just the notes, but pick angle, playing force, a hundred other things, etc.). Heck, even just changing the PICK can make a big difference.

But put almost anyone behind an arranger, and it sounds like what it is. For starters, there are the styles themselves... From what I read here (your customer base in a nutshell) darn few do anything at all to the styles. Very few do much to the sounds. Even fewer use the sampler. I never heard a Yamaha demo here that I didn't know in a flash it was a Yamaha. Same with most everything else, too. Including Roland, if they don't USE the tools provided!

But if, like those guitarists, your goal is to sound like YOU (not just play like you), the ease with which you CAN alter the entire sound of the arranger is going to be important. And yes, I know that just about all of them CAN be altered, should their owners choose. BUT... how easy the OS makes it for you to do this will often make the difference between someone doing it regularly, and just giving up because it is too much work...

You can lead a horse to water, but if you put the stream out of easy reach, you still can't MAKE him drink

My point, exactly...and that would be the same for any keyboard.

Lots of 3rd party support would make it even easier, and excellent manufacturer support, like Steve Deming, goes a long way in making a company that much more enticing to buy from as well as return to.

It doesn't take long for people to become aware of products that aren't being supported properly...word travels even faster nowadays because of the Internet and forums like this one.

Make-up/cover tools will not keep people coming back to buy Roland products...it's service and support after the sale that usually makes the real difference.

Ian

Throw in a little jazz, blues, and Afro-Cuban, and that sounds like my kind of church.

chas

The Yamaha OS is not that much more difficult than the Roland, as you seem to think, Diki...I have no problem teaching a client how to use Style Creator IF they want to use it.

MOST people do not take advantage of style creation/editing, but usually turn to a third party, regardless of how easy the tools are to use.

So, it is important to most, if not all arranger buyers that there are lots of extras available(meaning factory and third party support).

We both know that most people take the "easiest" way out,not the "easier".

You are the exception maybe, but most arranger users I talk to (Roland or Yamaha or Korg)are always looking for third party styles...they just don't want to make them.

I heard that MidiSpot, a big source of Roland 3rd party styles seems to have abandoned them...is this true?

You can buy Yamaha styles on line....you can get lots of styles (and MIDIS) through the many Yamaha support groups.

That's why Yamaha is successful....hard to beat that kind of product support.

Ian

You still fail to get the point, Ian...

The Roland's DON'T NEED third party support. Everything that you HAVE to get third party support for on a Yamaha, Roland's already do, very elegantly and well integrated, within the arranger itself. You don't need to fly files out to your computer, you can adjust every aspect of a registration and sound and style and SMF and drumkit quickly and easily, even on the gig, while you are still playing! And then store it.

Exactly where it is best to do it, in the heat of battle, with your full PA and a crowd around you. Trying to hone a sequence at home, under non-gigging situations, is hit and miss at best. But if you need that snare a tad hotter, you'll KNOW it at the gig. Is it ringing, would it work better through YOUR PA if it were tuned down a tad? I don't imagine many Yamaha users are firing up Jørgen's programs during a gig. So you miss the opportunity to sound better.

But Roland's can do this easily. While you play. Beat THAT!