I wanted to share some thoughts with you guys regarding the issue we bring up from time to time regarding arrangers and the lack of "modern styles" more specifically in the electronica department.

Personally I would love to see these arranger have a more modern set of styles. However..., when you look at it realistically I think it's safe to say we're not going to get them.., and here's why I feel this way about it.

The only way arranger makers can do this (logically) is by doing what Yamaha did years ago. Years back Yamaha released a low budget arranger keyboard called the DJX (I'm talking about the original blue baby.., and not that gawd awful DJXII). Those of you who may not remember the original DJX.., this was an arranger keyboard made SOLEY for electronica. This arranger was choc full of up to date modern styles in dance, trance, hip hop, rap, drums-n-bass, ect. Not only were these styles modern and up to date, but the DJX had a voice set unlike any other Yamaha arranger of the time. It was also loaded with drum kits that were specific to these styles of music and these kits weren't found on other Yamaha arrangers. There were also numerous other one shot samples such as vocal hits and stabs included in the soundset too.., that later found their way into other Yamaha models.

Some of you may not realize it.., but over the years (being a former DJX owner myself).., I can tell you that there were quite a few styles on upper, mid, and lower Yamaha arrangers (that were released well after the original DJX) that had their modern styles taken from the original DJX. Even my old Yamaha PSR-550 had a few DJX styles.

The DJX also had real time control knobs and other features that gave the player a DJ type control over the mix..., such as direct part muting of style parts (where a section of the keys became controllers for this). The DJX also had (although limited) a sampler.., it even had a ribbon controller that has assignable settings. There was even a dedicated (groove knob) that changed "swing" in real time along with other controllers..., not to mention this was also a big seller for Yamaha.., but they killed the line with the second generation model.

Anyways..., when you look at it today "realistically" keyboard companies cannot produce these more recent arrangers with modern styles because the only logical way to do this would be to release a keyboard specific to the styles themselves (like the DJX).

Consider this too... It's much easier to create an arranger keyboard that 99.99 caters to the tradtional and classics. Why...???? Well simply because if you think about it.., 4 weeks from today (hell even 4 years from today) jazz, big band, swing, waltz, classic/traditional rock, funk, polka's, cumbas, rhumba's ect are still going to sound the same.

You look at these modern styles of music and ONE word stands out and that's MODERN. Hip Hop and Rap are styles that change by the the day and by the week. Arranger makers would have to constantly be updating these boards in order to keep them "up to date" with what's considered current. They would have to employ style creators who would have their hands full trying to keep up with the market.

So the makers have a choice of either releasing a board specific to these styles with a whole team releasing weekly or montly updates for the styles or just giving you a few basic one's that cover the generics. Money invested would also be an issue. So makers choose the least expensive route which is giving you some styles that cover the basics. They're not so bad that you find yourself doing the moonwalk or dancing like MC-Hammer, but they're not so great that JayZ and others would take an interest.

You also have to consider the "typical arranger player" and the targeted market for them.

Bottom line is this... if you want modern styles.., you're gonna have to make them yourself. If your keyboard has a sampler you'll have to make use of it and build your own kits. It's a lot of work to do this on any arranger....., which is clearly why the workstation sells 1000 times to 1 for these styles of music. They have the sound set, easier to use samplers, and onboard sequencers that are better designed for creating it.

Any other views on it from members here?

Exactly Squeak...this is the foundation of modern Hip Hop culture style music...arrangers have no place in it....there are so many other tools being used for this type of music plain & simple.
No surprises....you have to seek what tools work for your needs. You can't build a house with just hammer alone



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-29-2008).]

That's why I gave up on the arranger for this Donny some time ago I did create some more modern grooves on arrangers, but nothing like what I could do on my workstations. Plus (money wise) it's more expensive to buy an arranger for this! If you look at the price.., top end workstations are $1000 or more cheaper than top end arrangers. Hell you could buy the fully weighted 88 key Motif XS8 for less than a Tyros 3.....

My little ($179) Zoom StreetBoxx 246 even destroys every arranger out there in terms of modern sounds for these styles. I think at the least arranger makers could include some basic hip hop kit patches that will always have a place in the style. I know some of the arranger players would probably kill to have the (hand claps) on my little Zoom SB246.., and even a few of the bass drums.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-29-2008).]

I remember reading some raving reviews about the DJX in Keyboard magazine...

But you are right, I believe DJX sounds and styles were about the 90's, and would seem dated now, whereas any old polka on any arreanger would sound, well, like a polka.

The original DJX got amazing reviews. Yes.., by today's standards it would probably be a bit dated, but I can tell you (from being a former owner of the original DJX) even those styles (then) would still give every current arranger today a run for the money in terms of upbeat styles.

I remember reading pro mag reviews where they in the end had no idea where to even categorize the DJX because it was such a different beast compared to the average arranger.

The thing is, arrangers per se are NOT incapable of making contemporary musics. In fact, their capabilities for song construction completely outclass WS and loop tools, who offer little in the way of Intro/Variations/Fills/Endings structure... you just keep stringing loops together in a far more disconnected sense, IMO.

But unless the manufacturers show a willingness to pay for the creation of modern sounding styles, they are simply not going to land in the hands of younger players, who's need for polkas might be a little bit less than some of us here And without them being in the hands of younger players, what manufacturer looks FORWARD to a diminishing demand for a type of product?

Trouble is, of course, they have created this diminishing demand themselves, but probably can't admit it to themselves. But if anyone is responsible for the slipping of arranger sales, it has to be those who chose the ROM styles and sounds.

The DJX was an amazing product... and sold pretty well, from what I remember. You have to ask yourself what could possibly have gone on in some secret meeting to make them stop making successful follow-ups to it...

More profit for the WS division if making loop based music is made harder than the DJX made it, perhaps? Tough to get those high WS dollars when a cheap arranger could do it as well and simpler, no?

Maybe it's simpler to assume a whole conspiracy theory than admit PERHAPS it was simple incompetence by the Marketing Division...

Pre recorded Loops and Software synths are far more suited and (far more original capable) than Arranger Styles. I find even the vast library of Yamaha lacking for those who want to do Hip Hop Trace, Garage and the myriad of other modern MTV Grammy Award type loop style recordings. A PC loops and software synths along with an Akai beat box will go a lot farther and a lot longer in creating a host of original music in those genres.

I was pitching a PSR900 to a rapper and sold it based on the idea that he could use NON traditional loops like Schalgers/Big Band and world styles as a base. No one is doing that. Sometimes one needs to Take a risk and think outside the box.

Oh Lord! JUST what the world needs now... A schlager/hiphop wave Or bigband/rap

1. Arranger manufactures are keeping up with the times.

2. Most people that buy them are matured or retired. (Mainly due to the expense)

3. Is it a diminishing market?

3a. NO

4. Why is it not a diminishing market?

4a. People continually mature and retire.

5. Will today’s styles be available on arrangers?

5a. YES

6. When will these styles be available?

6a. when today’s youngsters mature and retire

And so the cycle continues

Regards

Bill

you are right to a degree bill. But the market is changing and and arranger keyboards are becomeing more contemporary. The eastern market is a prime example. The musicians there are sampling their own instruments and creating their own styles and beats. Thats where the growth market is and where the greatest developent for arrangers lie. Current arrangers can do almost everything to be contemporary music making machines but people are tunnel visioned and lack the creativity. But this will change. The gap betwen workstaions and arrangers is reducing

make it as easy to "mix & match" ALL style parts on board an arranger KB as it is on software programs....let people put
together in a super EASY WAY all the style parts they want so they will play effortlessly on the KB & you have problem solved.

Diki..., yes the DJX was amazing. Why they killed the line.., well we can speculate for days on that one Personally I think the release of the DJXII is what killed the whole line. Many previous owners (myself included) were very excited when we heard there was a second model coming out. There were even rumors that it was going to be a more pro orientated model too. Then they released that gawd awful 2nd version and it went to hell from there. They dropped the LCD for an LED..., made it a terrible color scheme, and they dropped touch sensitive keys. Yammie lost a huge amount of support for it after that. Personally I think Yamaha intentionaly shot themselves in the foot because the original did better than they expected and started to cut into the upper line. I remember reading music mags and looking at pro and private studios featured in articles and wouldn't ya know (during that time) the studio's had Yamaha DJX's

Bill I think you're WAY off on your point. Based on your response..., you're saying that everyone once they mature stick to the traditional styles. I know plenty of people in their mature years who listen to hip hop..., and have been diggin it since the start... Based on your response they're supposed to be listening to the oldies as they mature. Speak for yourself man.

If they're male and musicians, they may retire but it's unlikely they'll ever mature.

chas

LOL Thats what I thought when I heard the first RAP being trashing over a remix an old hit song. Look what it started!

I could do without the Schlager styles. Someone should be able to do something with them outside the box. Now the Big Band is sacrosanct.

Kingfrog..., that's actually nothing new. Hip Hop and Rap artists have many times in the past reached back and grabbed styles like Jazz, Swing, and even BigBand and remade those into modern styles. It's still popular to hear a Hip Hop groove using a "hip hop jazz kit" with an acoustic walking bass line. Some of those beats were really catchy too.

For example I remember a popular artist (I think it was 2001) who did a very catchy tune that used a beat that could be categorized as "Jazz Hop".., or even "Swing Hop". It was an artist named Blu Cantrell. One of her hit songs was "Waste My Time".., but there was a song on that album called "Swingin" which is probably a very good example of how Hip Hop artists take a style like Jazz/Swing/BigBand and put a Hip Hop twist on it.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

Hi Squeak

Not quite sure what you are getting at in your post.

Manufactures load the arrangers with styles of the Target market. (Yes there will always be those that go outside the box, but not enough for the manufactures to cater for)

By and large when people mature, they like to hear what they had in their youth, which these days is more Hip Hop, and so manufactures will incorporate these styles when the target market reaches an age that that target market can afford to buy arrangers with these styles. (How many young ones can afraid an arranger, certainly not enough for arranger manufactures to cater for them as yet)

As I said it’s just a constant cycle.

Regards

Bill

Again Bill I have disagree with you man. Bill you're out of touch with the Hip Hop market. Some people seem to think Hip Hop just started within the last 10 years. Hip Hop and Rap has been around for a good 30 years Bill. Perhaps you don't know this because the industry started in the United States. Does the group SugarHill Gang ring any bells???? Does the year 1979 ring any bells. Hip Hop and Rap have been around for a long time now.., yet these arrangers still cater to the older crowd. They've had 30 years worth of material building up to what you have today in the industry and they still don't do these styles any justice.

They target to the older crowd because it's no secret that the arranger marker have been tapping the pockets of arranger buyers for years. They target the older mature home player for many reasons too. The best example I can give you Bill is simply this. Look at the Tyros 3 and the Motif XS8. Look at the price difference between the two. Does it make sense that you can buy Yamaha's top end 88 keys fully weighted workstation for less than a Tyros 3 and the workstation is built better and built for the pro market.

Got to agree with squeak, here, Bill... If you think that current arrangers ARE 'keeping up with the times', sadly I have to inform you that it is YOU who aren't!

There isn't a single style in any TOTL arranger in the hiphop and rap genres that sounds remotely like anything contemporary. Three or four or five years ago? Maybe, but in hiphop, that's a lifetime!

Bill take this into consideration too. There is a very big reason you don't see these arrangers having more modern styles. That's because if they started making them this way.., the keyboard makers would lose a lot of their target market.

A good example Bill is people like yourself. You own a Wersi..., if Wersi suddenly started catering to the modern market how many of their loyal customers do think would stick around? Do you think Yamaha could sell as many Tyros 3's in the states to their target market for nearly $4,000 if it was choc full of modern styles?

The fact that you can buy the Motif XS8 for less than a Tyros 3 speaks volumes.... To say it's numbers is also bullsh*& too. Arranger sales in the US make up just a small number of how HUGE the numbers really are. What arranger makers don't make in the US market they more than make up for in the Euro and Asian markets. They just got smart many years ago and realized that they can get the mature or retired home player to pay a hell of a lot more.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

Bill take a look at this.... The year was 1979..... Do you know how many songs were inspired by this beat???????? This song is iconic in the industry and today is still considered the song and group that started it all..., or at least brought it out from the underground into mainstream Nearly 30 years later and you can still fill the dance floor at a modern club with this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diiL9bqvalo

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

Well then. In that case perhaps there is a place for an Arranger in today's modern music world after all.

Ohhh...., there's a place alright. The DJX proved that.., don't forget Roland took a shot at it too with the EG-101. The problem is that the arranger makers don't want to give up that profit margin when you look at the prices of the home arranger compared to the pro workstation.

I still give much Kudo's to Korg though because they are doing a great job at combining the two with the PA series. They may not be choc full of modern styles, but the tools are there to make them.., along with the more up to date Korg soundsets too (considering the PA's had their programs originally based on the Triton Classic)

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

They probably don't include many "modern" styles because of people like me. I don't care if they are there, but I won't be using them and would prefer they use the space for up-to-date Country, Ballad, Blues or Rock styles.
Oh yes, and it's people like me who buy the blasted things.
If you listen to a "Country" radio station now, there is very little traditional country music on it. Oh sure, they put a little steel guitar in the background to "brand" it, but most of the modern country songs are slightly reworked rock or pop style songs. The days of 3 chords and the truth are pretty much past. Michael Buble and Blake Shelton both released powerful versions of "Home". They were quite similar in sound and feeling.
I mention Country, Rock, Blues and Pop, because I prefer songs with a melody and chord structure of some sort, yet don't want to be mired in 100% oldies.
My very limited concept of Hip-hop and other modern styles is that the emphasis is on the beat rather than the melody or structure. That is almost certainly an over-simplified statement though! However, it would seem that a talented style-maker could create and market a catalog of modern styles. If the market for them is really that strong, he could make a lot of money. I know, after the initial wave of sales everyone would copy and re-distribute them, but by then the current market would have changed and the style-maker could create "today's" crop of styles. I suppose Yamaha is the industry leader in volume, so that would be a good brand to start with.
Squeak, maybe you could make this into a lucrative business, or at least a sideline.
Back in the late 70's, early 80's, a friend of mine and I once started a small business writing styles. We sold a few locally, many of them simply drum patterns for Yamaha and Alesis machines. The problem then with arranger styles was the limited memory available on the keyboards. There was only room for one or two user styles at a time, and loading new ones was slow. All that has changed now of course.
Just rambling. . .
DonM

Don.., I've been strongly considering purchasing a high end arranger and creating some modern styles for market. The need's there, but no one is really meeting the demand for it. We can't rely on the arranger makers because they don't want to lose their current market. Still shows though that there is clearly a market for something like the original DJX, but in a pro version. Arranger control over modern styles is very cool. I will say the biggest obsticle for anyone who's wanting to take modern styles to market is that these current arrangers typically lack the kits for it. If I was to do this.., I'd probably get my hands on a Korg PA series simply because of how indepth the synth engine is on those. I would also have to do some serious tweeking to the kits.

I'm a different type of keyboard player I guess. I go from playing orchestral music, to blues, to jazz, to rock, some country, and into hip hop all in one sitting. I think the arranger makers have a chance to tap into a big market..., just depends if they can not be so greedy with pricing.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

Chas, pretty much hit the "nail on the head" as far as male musician's egos go (me included, I'm sure)!


R.

YEAH BABY! Check out what I found. Now mind you the DJX was from around 1998 so the patterns and grooves are of that time..., but wahooo..., what a blast back to the past with this one of kind arranger keyboard. Scroll down for the sound samples. Check out number 73... SUGARHILL BABY!

You really want to know something funny about Hip Hop and Rap though. I could say "blast from the past" and be talking about last week
http://www.synthmania.com/djx.htm



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

The start of 73 reminds me more of Another One Bites The Dust!

Amazing though, a lot of those could be being used on current releases! They still sound relatively current. At least more so than an arranger's (the ones I have used) version of the same styles!!

I never realised how "hip" the DJX series was. Gives one the idea that maybe it could be added as an additional keyboard for the arranger. It's certainly small enough!!

Dennis

When it was released the DJX was spot on with its styles. The style set reached back into the day and (present for the late 90's).

I don't hear Queen at all in number 73. To me it has SugarHill written all over it. Try rapping the lyrics to it along with the beat and it'll scream SugarHill.

This site just has a few examples of what was on the keyboard.... Quite a few of the DJX's styles made it into other arranger keyboards from Yamaha. The guy didn't however demo the REAL good kits found only on the DJX....

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]

Hi Squeak

Remember the song and group very well, however I didn’t realise it was that old. (Doesn’t time fly?)

I myself was always into heavy Rock (Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath etc) and still am today. (Love listening to it live)

Due to the way I was introduced to many types of music by my parents, I also have a very wide selection in music tastes, although Hip Hop and Rap are not part of them. (On the other hand well into my late 30s I could not understand what people saw in Jazz (To me it sounded like somebody who couldn’t play bashing a few notes out) however these days I find I really like jazz and find many of these Jazz players absolutely awesome)

Anyway back to the topic

As Hip Hop/Rap has been out about 30 years, then following the usual cycle, the next generation of arrangers should have a lot more of these styles, with the following 2 – 3 generations of arrangers moving towards predominantly these styles and makeup tools..

Looks like you will not have to wait as long as you think, for an arranger that has what you want.

Regards

Bill

Doubtful Bill... I don't see the arranger makers doing this anytime soon. At the price some of these arrangers go for..., I don't see them doing anything they feel could drive away their biggest buyers.

What'll have to happen is for either of the companies to pick up where the DJX left off. Yamaha in some ways have a rebirth of the DJX line. However, they (for obvious profit) categorized this arranger in their synth line up. The MM6 is somewhat a rebirth of the DJX line. It has very modern styles, has it's roots in the PSR line (made in the PSR factory too), and even has a voice set based on the Motif Classic. Yamaha could have made a few changes to this model and completey relaunched the DJX line and it would have been a big hit. Instead they tried to pass of an arranger keyboard in the Motif family and ended up pissing off a lot of buyers.

Yamaha played the word game with it by using the term patterns instead of styles. The styles on the MM6 aren't as full as you'd find on a typical arranger (as some of them were on the DJX too), but in the end it's an arranger keyboard.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-30-2008).]