I know of all the hassles with a group...arguements about who solos...disagreements about volume, material...personal problems with women, money, alcohol. But, I NEED interaction with other players. That's the good thing about doing OMB stuff. I control the rythem section and horn or guitar players just add the "sweetening". Players of a certain caliber and experience fit right in without a lot of rehersal.

Of course, my "newest group" is my grandson on drums and my son on bass. I do guitar ansd keys. We're not the best in the world, but what fun!

Russ

That was the word I was looking for.... FUN

Working with an arranger is just that... work. Sure, there's a decent musical experience to be had if it's done right, but for me, it's just 'work'.

But.... a few cookin' players around you - now THAT's 'fun'

It's weird. The type of music you play and where you play it makes it such a different world. Playing jazz in a jazz club has a totally different set of demands. People care more about HOW you play than WHAT you play. They want you to 'cook'. Whether you're cookin' on something written 40 yrs. ago or yesterday, is unimportant. Of course there are 'crowd favorites' but there is almost zero demand to play the 'latest' tune and absolutely no requirement to 'play it like the record'. Arrangers don't lend themselves very well to improvisational music, which is why you will probably never see one in a jazz club (although, as Diki says, there is no reason you couldn't use a G70 in synth mode). In fact, the problem with using a synth in a jazz setting is that you might be tempted to try a trumpet or sax solo. Stick with piano, el. piano, and (sparingly) organ, and you'll be okay. If I had to cover a jazz gig with a synth, it would probably be a Nord Electro (3). Best compromise piano and organ. I know jazz players that haven't learned a new tune in years, yet seem to know every 'standard' ever written. I guess they figure learning to play one song ten different ways is as good as learning to play ten songs one way only. Oh well, different strokes......

chas

Going to sell that FantomG and get the Electro3 when it comes out, chas? Or just go the whole hog and get the Stage...?

I have to confess, I've tried all the major WS's lately, MoXS, M3 and FantomG...

Yawn..!

They simply don't excite me. The Stage and E3 are about the only things that give me any gear lust, right now.

I regularly do sessions with some good buddies who play guitar, Saxophone, and keyboards...it makes a difference, to be sure. I always learn something from these collaborations.
Still, I prefer to work alone...I guess it's a control thing(as well as a better profit margin)...but there is no doubt that having another musical POV is valuable.

Ian

Bill, I thought I was reading about myself as I read your post. Breaking ties with friends is very difficult. In my case, the sax man was in charge of bookings and he let it get away from him so we kind of died. I tried a couple times to find work for us, but the market was not in out favor.

My suggestion would be to sit down with at least one member and mention your concerns. Maybe if the word gets to the others they will react positively, OR maybe even surprise you by leaving on their own.

I know I prefer playing with others, the more the merrier. But playing in a band always has its trials and tribulations, especially when you're the one putting out 80% of the combined efforet.

Best of luck; keep us informed.

I think that until you step away from ANY machine involvement in the music, it is still pretty much the same thing, Ian. As much as we like to ridicule them, a happening bass player and drummer make FAR more difference to the sound of a combo, rather than an arranger rhythm section, than adding horns or guitars, etc. to an arranger OMB.

Money, sure... but is it REALLY supposed to be about money?

Don't get me wrong, you all know I have an arranger, use it for EVERYTHING, and know how to work it. But 'playing' music with an arranger is no more 'playing' than karaoke is (I'm going to get Katoushka'd for this!). It's 'manufacturing' music, or 'producing' music. But in my mind, until EVERY part is played by a human, it's NOT 'playing music'.

But I'm crazy like that... I simply think that to remove ALL human interaction out of music turns it into something different. Call it what you will, but for me, it AIN'T 'making music'. Imagine yourself watching an act that was a drummer and a bass player, but everything else was recorded. Do you honestly think that constitutes 'making music'? Really?

Because them looking at you doing the same damn thing probably brings up the same emotion.

More and more of us are finding out that the audience doesn't give a damn if we use arranger mode, SMF's or outright karaoke. But it OUGHT to make a difference to US... We DO consider ourselves musicians, don't we?

I'm not saying anyone should stop doing what they are doing (I know I'm not!), I simply feel that perhaps we should be a little more honest with each other, and especially ourselves about what we are doing.

I have been very fortunate to have played with many great musicians (and drummers ) over my lifetime. No matter HOW good I think any arranger sounds, I have the memory of playing with combos that sounded MUCH, MUCH better, could change it up on a dime, and could push me to playing better than I thought I could. No machine is EVER going to give me that, and I'm sorry, but THAT is what I call 'making music'...

The rest is 'making money'

(I just moved house, so if your rockets are zeroed in on my old address, I'm afraid I'm not there any more!)

Happy New Year... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Good points, Diki.

It's always great to have a "live" drummer and bass player....when you can find them.

Unfortunately that's not always the case, and when the next best thing is using an arranger for those parts, then that's what you have to do.

I like playing piano and my new Yamaha KX8 lets me do LH bass as well, so most times I only use arranger drums.

And yes, it shouldn't be all about money, but unfortunately, it has to be that way if we want to make a living at what we love....it's okay if I'm living off a retirement fund, or I'm wealthy through inheritance, but in reality, I'm not, so I gig the ways that make me happy AND make me money.

Ian

I'm right there with you Ian... I've got no objection to making money

I simply feel that sometimes our enthusiasm for arrangers here at SZ occasionally blinds us to what we are doing. I read post after post from players that seem to indicate they think playing with an arranger IS 'playing music' at it's highest level, and all I can do is shake my head... Perhaps they have never had a band that made them feel like a musical God, or perhaps they chose to forget those older musical memories, in favor of memories about musical or business differences with these players (it's all too easy to focus on the negative, but what does that say about us as musicians, when personal differences outweigh a great musical contribution?).

But I honestly think that if anyone DOES think their arranger sounds better than any combo they have ever been in, they simply have not had the luck (or talent ) to play with others of that caliber. And I feel a little sorry for them. Until you DO play with the best, it MIGHT be possible to tell yourself that your arranger IS 'making music'. But once you do, only self-deception can make you still think that.

I LOVE money I HATE self-deception

Good comments all...

No rockets, but yeah, I disagree with you 1000000% Diki about playing an arranger is no different from a karaoke thing.

I can see where in theory, you'd might imagine that, but in reality, its a (advance apology for the harshness of the word...) sign of ignorance on your part.

#1, the obvious difference is that as a karoake singer, you're pretty well at the mercy of the file your singing to. When I play, the kb follows my commands. I interact with it...

Sometimes I ride a style, sometimes I clean one out and only use a portion of it...other times, I don't use a style at all but just play the kb straight. All the while singing. Changing instruments, breaking down a section, modulating, etc. Can a kareoke singer effect a key change on demand? Nope...

If you were close to me I'd love for you to come out and take in one of my gigs. From all the stuff I've read from you over the last several months...I don't think you compare what I do every day to a kareoke thing.

I'd like to think that I'm honest with myself and what I do...Working regularly as a omb and in a quartet I understand the difference, for sure. It IS different, yes...There is interaction, perhaps in a different way, but its there.




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Bill in Dayton